Dark Angel Rumours - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 04:15 PM
Senior Member
 
pathwinder14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 999
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venerable Dred
Quote:
Originally Posted by pathwinder14
... I personally want a Deathwing army. Turn 1 deep strike?? That's sooooo broken.
Explain please.

Let's see,
- only 50% of the Deathwing in reserve get to Deep Strike on Turn 1.
- Deathwing have a max unit size of 5 models
- Deathwing are limited to a max of 1 Heavy Weapon
- Must field Master of the Deathwing to use Deathwing squads as Troops
- Unless using the Ravenwing as teleport spotters, the teleporting Deathwing will still have the standard chance of scattering

Therefore in order to get two Deathwing squads in on turn 1, I need to have at least three Deathwing squads held in reserve.
Further, if I give each squad an Assault Cannon (assumed), then that is close to 750 pts for just those three units.

So for a 1500 pts pure Deathwing list, the best I can get is three 5-man squads to Deep-Strike in on Turn 1 following normal deep strike rules, and each squad will only be equipped with a maximum of one Assault Cannon (or Heavy Weapon of your choice). Resulting in three Assault Cannons and 12 Storm Bolters within range of pretty much your opponent's entire army on turn 1 (and the rest of your Deathwing squads not arriving until Turn 2 or later), which is hardly overwhelming. You will be able to target three units, and mostly likely his entire army will be able to target your three squads (providing a great chance to test out the effectiveness of Terminator armour)

So I am not sure how that is "sooooo broken".


Venerable Dred
Explanation:

Let's say (for argument's sake) you go second.

First point. Your opponent has nothing to shoot at on their half of turn one. With no squads on the table they have no targets.

Second point. One or two squads deepstrike on turn ONE.

Third point. They do so on the edge of your opponent's deployment zone. This cuts off a crucial enemy unit or vehicle.

Fourth point. They have Teleport Homers. Once the first squad is on the board no other units of Deathwing terminators will deviate.

Fifth point. On the subsequent turns you drop pod in your dreadnoughts (you had better have two of these). These represent a new threat to your opponent and he/she now suffers from being between them and your terminators (hammer and anvil).

Sixth point. Those drop pods are essentially walls and you can place them to direct the flow of your opponent's army on the field.

Seventh point. Get a gun drop pod and land raiders to make it more nasty.

I'm not saying it's not beatable; it is. What I am saying is that the army can almost play itself. It would be hard to lose with them (all Genestealers or World Eaters may do it).

Wisdom means having the ability to admit what you do not know. - Me

Mother nature does not give do overs. - Me too
pathwinder14 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 04:24 PM
The Hebrew Hammer
 
The Son of Horus's Avatar
The Son of Horus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,544
Reputation: 60
Default

My Thousand Sons could do it without breaking a sweat. I'd have more casualties if I used my Sons of Horus or my Space Marines, but it's very beatable. It's no different than playing against a largely drop-pod entering Space Marine army.

IN THE US? ASK ME HOW TO GET 10% OFF GAMES WORKSHOP PRODUCTS!

My homebrew Space Marine Chapter: The Astartes Lions Rampant

The Son of Horus is offline  
post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 04:32 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 28
Default

the only problem is your not facing 3+ marines your facing 2+/5+ marines with power fists and big weapons.
Knight of ne is offline  
 
post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 04:47 PM
Senior Member
 
pathwinder14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 999
Reputation: 1
Default

Exactly.

Wisdom means having the ability to admit what you do not know. - Me

Mother nature does not give do overs. - Me too
pathwinder14 is offline  
post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 05:37 PM
The Hebrew Hammer
 
The Son of Horus's Avatar
The Son of Horus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,544
Reputation: 60
Default

But a significantly fewer number of them. In 1500 points, as it's been stated, you're going to have around 26 models total. My Thousand Sons don't really care about armor saves for the most part. Wind of Chaos goes through pretty much anything. The power fists would hurt if it weren't for the fact that I can bring so much firepower to bear on so few models that it just isn't an issue.

IN THE US? ASK ME HOW TO GET 10% OFF GAMES WORKSHOP PRODUCTS!

My homebrew Space Marine Chapter: The Astartes Lions Rampant

The Son of Horus is offline  
post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 07:41 PM
Senior Member
 
pathwinder14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 999
Reputation: 1
Default

Ahh but you're assuming that all my models will be on the board at the same point in the same place.

My other units of terminators will show up on the board at a later time as will my dreadnoughts. The only thing a Tzeentch army has that could even scare me is the all sorcerer super HQ squad. But one deepstriking unit of terminators should clear that up.

Wisdom means having the ability to admit what you do not know. - Me

Mother nature does not give do overs. - Me too
pathwinder14 is offline  
post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 08:12 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathwinder14
Explanation:
Let's say (for argument's sake) you go second.

First point. Your opponent has nothing to shoot at on their half of turn one. With no squads on the table they have no targets.
Right.
So with nothing to shoot at they instead move to either secure objectives and/or set up firing lanes for the incoming Deathwing squads.

Quote:
Second point. One or two squads deepstrike on turn ONE.
Right, so your opponent will only have 5 or 10 models models on the board for two turns, and they will be within range of all of your weapons.

Two Deathwing squads with Assault Cannons will take up just about 1/3 of 1500 pt army. (and at least one more Deathwing squad must be in reserve to bring in two squads on turn one)
At 5 models per squad, it will be easy to force saves by the Assault Cannon terminator as well.

Quote:
Third point. They do so on the edge of your opponent's deployment zone. This cuts off a crucial enemy unit or vehicle.
Well for one thing you are assuming that there will be no scattering of the incoming Deathwing squads (unless guided by Ravenwing bikers, they following the standard Deep Strike rules), and I am not clear as to how the location mentioned is going to “cut off a crucial enemy unit or vehicle”?
It is only 5 models in a tight, base-to-base circle (perfectly sized to fit within a terminator-busting Vindicator round). Easy enough to move around, or close enough to make rapid-fire fairly easy as well.

Quote:
Fourth point. They have Teleport Homers. Once the first squad is on the board no other units of Deathwing terminators will deviate.
Sorry, no Teleport Homers for Deathwing.
Only Ravenwing bikes will have Teleport Homers.

Quote:
Fifth point. On the subsequent turns you drop pod in your dreadnoughts (you had better have two of these). These represent a new threat to your opponent and he/she now suffers from being between them and your terminators (hammer and anvil).
Well, provided that there are any terminators left after being on the receiving end of two rounds of concentrated fire.
Seriously, there is nothing else for your opponent to target. Throw enough at them and even Terminators will eventually fail their 2+ saves ( and this is not counting the large amount of AP2/1 and Rending weapons available as well).

Also those Dreadnought Drop Pods (and any remaining Deathwing held in reserve) will be arriving at the whims of a die roll (I have seen units held in reserve never arrive during a game).
Further, in addition to 750 +/- pts of Deathwing you mentioned above (just for 3 squads), those two Dreds and DPs will use up another 300 +/- pts (or more if you want Lascannons or extra armour or Ven Dreds).


Quote:
Sixth point. Those drop pods are essentially walls and you can place them to direct the flow of your opponent's army on the field.
Two drop pods do not make a wall.
(just an FYI, Deathwing will not have access to Drop Pods)

Quote:
Seventh point. Get a gun drop pod and land raiders to make it more nasty.
Oh, sorry, no Gun Drop Pods for the DA (unless you are counting Forge World models, if so then IA brings in all kinds of options for the opposition as well).

Land Raiders are a good and expensive choice.
Lets see, MotDW, 3 DW squads, 2 Dred w/Drop Pods, and a single Land Raider will leave you less than 100 pts left over in a 1500 pt list . Which is not enough for another DW squad, but could be used for for extra stuff (like a DW Banner, or TL Lasconnons for the Dreds).

All in total that provides only about 20 models and only 6 scoring units.
A tough play in any mission with objectives.

Quote:
I'm not saying it's not beatable; it is. What I am saying is that the army can almost play itself. It would be hard to lose with them (all Genestealers or World Eaters may do it).
Seriously?
Those one or two Deathwing squads that arrive on turn one will have to be carefully placed and played in order to survive two round of dedicated fire from say,
- A "guided" squad of Fire Dragons,
- Or a Vindicator (or two),
- Or an Assault Squad with three plasma pistols (and a Vet Sgt with a Power Weapon),
- Or a Predator Annihilator,
- Or Devastator Squad with Lascannons,
- Or a full squad of Tau Crisis suits rapid-firing plasmas with Markerlight bonuses,
- Or a charge from a full brood of Genestealers,
- etc., etc.

I doubt that a Deathwing Army will “play itself” against any decent opponent, regardless of the army they are using.

Seriously, I would love for my opponent to only set down one or two 5-man squads so that they are within rapid-fire range of my entire army, and then give me two rounds to shoot at them before he brings in the rest of his army onto the board (especially if those 10 models represent about half of his army).


Venerable Dred
Venerable Dred is offline  
post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 10:24 PM
Senior Member
 
pathwinder14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 999
Reputation: 1
Default

Venerable Dread,

You give good argument. Though it is a little misguided. Perhaps I was not clear. Here's what I mean:

____________________Enemy Deployment Zone__________________
D EE E EE EEEEEEEEEE
D E E E
DD E E E EEEE E EEEE
D E EE EE EEEEE

________________________Board Edge________________________


D = deathwing terminators (staying 1" away from enemy troops)
E = Enemy units (tanks troops, etc.)


I plan on deepstriking units onto the edge of my opponent's deployment zone close enough to his own troops that any of his ordinance will be too dangerous to use. Any Tanks that have LOS will prevent other tanks behind them from targeting me. All I have to worry about is the enemy directly in front of me and to my flanks. Intelligent placement of my units should reeduce/eliminate the threat.

Hope the diagram helps.

Deathwing will not get teleport homers or drop pods? How do you know? Do you work for GW? If they cannot get Drop pods how will my dreadnoughts show up? If they cannot get teleport homers, what's to stop me from purchasing a teleport homer for a squad seargent as wargear so all other units can key into his position? It is wargear is it not? Can my Chaplain or Squad Seargent not purchase it as wargear?

By the way, Drop Pods have an armor value. They are not skimmers. They are immobile vehicles. You cannot shoot my troops through them. Thus they are a wall. :D

Wisdom means having the ability to admit what you do not know. - Me

Mother nature does not give do overs. - Me too
pathwinder14 is offline  
post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 10:25 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 34
Default

your missing the point who ever said a Deathwing army was was good its like dark eldar you need to think about how to plat and where to DS
other than its just a fun army
slaanesh's tears is offline  
post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-02-07, 10:28 PM
Senior Member
 
pathwinder14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 999
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaanesh's tears
your missing the point who ever said a Deathwing army was was good its like dark eldar you need to think about how to plat and where to DS
other than its just a fun army
If that's teh case every army is a just a fun army. If this is the case the only totally wrong army is Iron Warriors. Yet, even they have a weakness.

DE can be nasty if you build the army right and play them right.

Wisdom means having the ability to admit what you do not know. - Me

Mother nature does not give do overs. - Me too
pathwinder14 is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome