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post #41 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.

If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.

However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.

Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.



Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't GW attempt to properly balance the game once? wasn't the overall opinion negative?

GW made their position clear they're a model company, that is something they're supporting, the whole gaming thing is getting low.
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post #42 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 04:48 AM
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So tell me, since you can't paint at your local store only game, how many hours do you spend playing the game? And how many hours do you spend painting models?

Maybe the power gamer was uncalled for, but tell me are you really interested in the actual hobby or just playing games?

So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?
I have mentioned this elsewhere, and probably on Heresy as well, but I have not played a game of 40k since 7th was dropped - nor have I painted anything since that time either. But before, when I was having FUN with the game? I probably spent 3-6 hours a week building and painting stuff as I was interested in the army, I only played once a week where I got maybe 1-3 games in that were 1,500 points and under - if I wanted to play a bigger game then I would likely only get one game in at the FLGS. Of the time at the FLGS (no GW store near me until last year, which is pathetically small) I would spend 4-6 hours.

The amount of armies that you or I own is not relevant, the amount of redundancy in the amount of models does, I do not need to own multiple tactical squads, or 300 ork boyz, if I wanted to collect and paint stuffs, we own so much stuff of GW is because we get together with our friends once or twice a week and play a game or two while BSing a bunch of stuff. If GW wants to be a MODEL company, let me know I will stop playing the game; stop spending money; Not care about them; Spend my money on other games that I will actually play; Care for those games; and maybe once a year I will set aside time and money to buy a unit from FW.

I want balance in the game so that there are a wider variety of armies that I can make from a single codex, and have a roughly equal amount of success against a random list. For example I do not want a list where a Mono-God Slaanesh demons army by default has a negative modifier on its winning percentage. I want the game the FORGING OF THE NARRATIVE to dictate to me my winning chances, but by having army builds by default be worse than others in the book BEFORE I PUT THEM ON THE TABLE is inexcusable and will not be tolerated.

When GW effectively destroys the Dark Angel codex of their uniqueness when they released the Space Marines codex is again inexcusable and will not be tolerated.

These are just a couple of examples, there are more - but I will spare everyone (including myself) and stop here.

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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.
If GW cared about it's customers they would care about tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.

If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.

However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.

Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.

Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.
I agree with a lot of what Sethis says here, In particular the first and last paragraphs.

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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't GW attempt to properly balance the game once? wasn't the overall opinion negative?

GW made their position clear they're a model company, that is something they're supporting, the whole gaming thing is getting low.
When did GW attempt to balance the game? Balance is something that needs to ALWAYS be worked on with the style of releases that GW does.

I own the game as far back as 4th edition; 5th edition is when I started playing the game, 6th edition is the most balanced of the game (until GW released, Imperial Knights, Stronghold Assault, and Escalation).

The ideal version of the game that I see would be something that would be mostly 6th edition with a lot of key elements from 5th edition (assault from reserves, assault from a stationary vehicle - those being the big ones that I can think of). My ideal version is not what EVERYONE wants to see, but if GW is willing to make an attempt at fixing the things that I am most disappointed with I would be happy.

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post #43 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 07:14 AM
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I have had this thought for a while and think this is the time and thread to put it in.

During this legal fight in the US against a Company I can't remember, did't GW defend with that they where a miniature-producing-Company thy made collectables? Now ever since I feel the rules and all has gone downhill but the do release more new kits than ever. Are GW trying to live up to their own defence? Many here reacted to their defence with: yeah right! But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.

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post #44 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Moriouce View Post
But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.
I disagree with this one I must admit - I think they are thinking more about the armies than ever before at this point. Especially with the last few codices and the coming Tyranid models.

Consdiering that Nids are now getting droppods, synapse-buffers and other goodies to help the army seems to me like they're listening to what players are saying and they are trying to rectify any shortcomings the army has. Combined with the more stable powerlevel of the recent codices (Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights in particular) it looks to me like they're thinking more about balance now than they did previously.

Maybe I'm optimistic - But I really like their current approach.
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post #45 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriouce View Post
I have had this thought for a while and think this is the time and thread to put it in.

During this legal fight in the US against a Company I can't remember, did't GW defend with that they where a miniature-producing-Company thy made collectables? Now ever since I feel the rules and all has gone downhill but the do release more new kits than ever. Are GW trying to live up to their own defence? Many here reacted to their defence with: yeah right! But now it seems everyone complains more and more that GW thinks they can sell new kits without regard to the game.

I think that they used that defense in the US as its a far more understandable point of reference for a jury and judge to understand, sometimes the non hobbiest has trouble with exactly what GW/40K/Warhammer actually is(some of the hobbiests do too lol)
And from a certain point of veiw the models are collectables, when you decide on your army you have in effect created a "collection" , ok it may not consist of ming dynasty pots or valuable stamps but there is a very real "collection" that goes on, quite a number of people involved in the hobby have models from many years ago, others buy limited editions, others buy anything and everything relating to there army of choice, so its impossible to dismiss that this hobby is very much about buying collectables, that isnt all of the hobby but it is a significant part of it and it really is as essential as building,painting and playing, how else would we know people with 20000 points of guard, or that chap whos collecting a 2nd company of marines ?

i shouldnt comment on the rules as im a very infrequent casual player at best, but im also in the camp of if its broke and you know its broke then fix it with house rules, 40k was and still is as far as i can tell a game to be played between friends on a weekend or evening in someones kitchen/dining room/basement, many chaps seem to take it far too seriously and focus far too much on whats broken rather than what isnt, Despite peoples issues with the games plenty of people for many years have seriously enjoyed playing enough to keep GW top of the pile without ever slipping off or getting seriously challenged.

I feel that we are in a great period for GW, maybe the numbers dont reflect it yet, but i think they may be turning the corner with the current stratergy,dropping the monthly WD in favour of weekly i think was a huge step in getting stuff to market quickly. what will be interesting and telling is how they move forward after the hobbit goes.



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post #46 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
i shouldnt comment on the rules as im a very infrequent casual player at best, but im also in the camp of if its broke and you know its broke then fix it with house rules, 40k was and still is as far as i can tell a game to be played between friends on a weekend or evening in someones kitchen/dining room/basement, many chaps seem to take it far too seriously and focus far too much on whats broken rather than what isnt, Despite peoples issues with the games plenty of people for many years have seriously enjoyed playing enough to keep GW top of the pile without ever slipping off or getting seriously challenged.

I feel that we are in a great period for GW, maybe the numbers dont reflect it yet, but i think they may be turning the corner with the current stratergy,dropping the monthly WD in favour of weekly i think was a huge step in getting stuff to market quickly. what will be interesting and telling is how they move forward after the hobbit goes.
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post #47 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 10:41 PM
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I think gw focuses on the models because their the first thing you see. Like when a potential customer walks in, they go 'ah that marine looks badass!!!'
They then have to sink £200 into buying a marine list (at least, likely more) before they can even play the fucking game, at which point they realise what a piece of shit the rules are... But they've already sunken £200 bucks in! Who cares!
I would enjoy 40k much more if assault squads didn't just sit down and cry upon seeing grey Knights dirt cheap terminators... I would like to use the riptides I think are badass without everyone looking at me as if I'm the scum of the earth for bringing one to a fun list...

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post #48 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-05-14, 10:47 PM
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Exactly. So we go back to the original question - are GW doing Right?





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post #49 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-06-14, 03:28 AM
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GW is doing it completely wrong, there isn't a game store within walking distance of my house.

But seriously that's why I stopped buying their stuff. That and a bunch of new friends into M:TG. I still love the models and paint occasionally but nowhere near as religiously as I used too when I had an awesome store 2 miles away from my house. (If you guys are in Orange County California go to the Portola Plaza GW and say hi to Chris for me) That's also sadly the reason I don't post here anymore, I don't play enough or even have the most recent ruleset so I can't really discuss it. Sigh... -end nostalgia-
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post #50 of 185 (permalink) Old 11-06-14, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Exactly. So we go back to the original question - are GW doing Right?
Meaning they're not doing what you want them to do.

They're certainly doing better than they were a few years ago.


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