GW finally getting it right? - Page 17 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #161 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 07:56 AM
Senior Member
ChaosRedCorsairLord's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,007
Reputation: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
well said..my point is that if people could present their complaints/opinions in a clear professional manner would they sit up and take notice? probably not..but when people complain and moan they way they do will that help any? definitely not.
The thing that people need to understand is GW is not a games company..yes there will be soooo many arguments to this..but at the end of the day they are a miniature company..the game is an excuse to buy more models..its all about perspective if you just look at this from a games point your always going to be unhappy..oh this is unfair etc etc.but if you look at it from the models perspective and getting to use these amazing models in a fun way then youll hopefully be happy as youll remember why you love painting etc. i hope that makes sense.
as ntaw said they take your money regardless..so its as you said a personal investment..either be happy with your investment or not.
Sorry, but that's a pretty lame excuse. Whether GW is a games or miniature company is irrelevant; the fact is they sell their rules for a price. It would be different if the 40k rules were something GW made available for free, however that's not the case. The 40k rules are a product that GW sells to us, they don't get to make and sell a substandard product without copping a bit of flak for it. They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.

Also I find it hilarious that you're blaming the "childish..spoilt or just whinny" fans. Of all the other game systems I play, I am yet to see any of them suffer from the utter vitriol that is directed at GW. Don't get me wrong, there are still little complaints and nitpicks, but nothing compared to what GW faces. Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset?

In summary; I disagree.

When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball...
ChaosRedCorsairLord is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #162 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 08:04 AM
Senior Member
 
fatmantis's Avatar
fatmantis's Flag is: New Zealand
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Shenzhen china
Posts: 1,755
Reputation: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosRedCorsairLord View Post
Sorry, but that's a pretty lame excuse. Whether GW is a games or miniature company is irrelevant; the fact is they sell their rules for a price. It would be different if the 40k rules were something GW made available for free, however that's not the case. The 40k rules are a product that GW sells to us, they don't get to make and sell a substandard product without copping a bit of flak for it. They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.

Also I find it hilarious that you're blaming the "childish..spoilt or just whinny" fans. Of all the other game systems I play, I am yet to see any of them suffer from the utter vitriol that is directed at GW. Don't get me wrong, there are still little complaints and nitpicks, but nothing compared to what GW faces. Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset?

In summary; I disagree.
its not an excuse its their company statement..
fatmantis is offline  
post #163 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 08:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Bindi Baji's Avatar
Bindi Baji's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: right about here
Posts: 1,999
Default

'Et's kicked the bucket, 'et's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!

THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Bindi Baji is offline  
 
post #164 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 08:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,689
Reputation: 19
Default

Just because it is their statement Fatmantis, does not mean that it is not an excuse as well.

"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
post #165 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 08:45 AM
Senior Member
ChaosRedCorsairLord's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,007
Reputation: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
its not an excuse its their company statement..
It's irrelevant. If they don't wanna spend the time and resources to play-test and balance the game rules, then they shouldn't charge obscene prices for them.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Just because it is their statement Fatmantis, does not mean that it is not an excuse as well.

"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
Ninja'd, Well said. You gave a great example earlier in the thread. The fact that GW still hasn't corrected the cost of plasma pistols after like 10 years just demonstrates how little they actually care about game balance, and how disconnected they are from their fan-base. I've seen and heard that complaint mentioned hundreds of times over the years, across various forums, blogs and stores.

When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball...

Last edited by ChaosRedCorsairLord; 03-07-15 at 08:51 AM.
ChaosRedCorsairLord is offline  
post #166 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 12:45 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
and sorry for a spelling mistake(s)..(whos on their high horse?)
I couldn't help it man, you spelled rapport as re-pore.

I should be glad this hobby exists...of course I fucking am! Otherwise what the hell would I bitch about?!!?!? Guilt trip: failed.

@Fallen , brilliant use of Obi-Wan's wisdom.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP
ntaw is offline  
post #167 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 01:16 PM
Heresy Online's Pet Furby
 
Tawa's Avatar
Tawa's Flag is: Scotland
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 8,723
Reputation: 94
Default

Play nice kids. Let's leave out the sniping and get back to the topic at hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jace of Ultramar View Post
I think Tawa is a temporal entity that exists outside of the hobby/modeling timeline. Essentially, he's the Heresy Online equivalent of a Time Lord... which is kinda hilarious and frightening all at the same time.
"God-Emperor? Calling him a god was how all this mess started."
Tawa is offline  
post #168 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 03:38 PM
Critique for da CriticGod
 
Kreuger's Avatar
Kreuger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
Posts: 3,350
Reputation: 43
Default

I like this analysis because it doesn't subscribe to the 'evil empire' view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosRedCorsairLord View Post
...They've written good rules in the past, so I don't see why they aren't able to do it again. I suspect the disregard for the game's rules and balance is due to the upper management being mostly made up of non-gamers, who fail to understand the benefits of spending resources to make sure the game's rules are simple, well written, and balanced.
And it holds up under Hanlon's razor:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanlon's Razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosRedCorsairLord View Post
...Now you have to ask yourself, who is really to blame here? Is it just that fans love to hate on GW, or is it that for years GW has constantly upset and alienated it's fan base, whilst showing a complete disregard for fixing a poorly balanced ruleset?
To be fair, GW have made mistakes but they have also worked to correct a number of the more glaring ones. I don't know how many of our community (and in this thread) played during second edition and then during 3rd or 4th. GW made a drastic change from 2nd edition to 3rd where they realigned their target audience, and shifted it from young adults and mature adults to children around 10 years of age. Consequently, the background and models were sanitized as much as possible and the complexity of the game was Greatly reduced.

This definitely alienated a number of people, myself included. I've played Chaos space marines and daemons since about 1993. Where the hell is Chaos in a sanitized 40K setting? They're cartoon villains twirling their mustaches while poor maidens are lashed to the train tracks. GW purportedly had a heck of a time trying to figure out what to do with Chaos. Daemons of violence, corruption, and debauchery won't ever be appropriate for 10 year olds. I recall hearing the Keeper of secrets went through something like 10 or more iterations before they settled on the ugly, stupid one during 3rd ed.

I'm happy to say that over the last several editions GW have moved firmly in the direction of a more mature setting. I'm guessing the younger demographic didn't generate the sales GW were hoping for. And of course those young gamers, if they stick to it, end up wanting a more interesting, complex, and compelling setting. Chaos is no longer sanitized for children and the rules are once more getting increasingly complex with many more army specific special rules.

Just a historical note, at the time of the reduction from 2nd ed to 3rd ed, 2nd edition was very complex. There were rules scattered all over the place, the original rules, expansion sets, codices, White Dwarfs, Citadel Journals, etc. It was necessary to devote a great deal of time to knowing and keeping up with all of it. For example, the boxed game had the only rule books; Dark Millennium had all the psychics, the wargear cards, the mission cards, the strategy cards (also known as tragedy cards because a few were quite imbalanced), and there were more of all of these things released periodically in White Dwarf and through the codices. I know, I ran open gaming in FLGS at the time.

What GW should have done, I think, was to edit things down and re-release all of the core pieces in a more streamlined edition, not scrap the whole thing and start over. I know all of that sounds like a long complaint, and it IS but the point here is that GW have been steadily listening the fanbase who wanted a more mature and complex game. Unlike 2nd ed GW now has all sorts of digital tools to help produce new content data-slates, etc. to expand the game in ways that don't leave people out (e.g. if you missed the WD with the new strategy cards you were SOL for several years there after).

To @Fallen 's point and @ChaosRedCorsairLord 's, I think GW should probably have a digital access code in each rulebook. Once you buy the core book you have access to a live (searchable) version of the core rules including all the errata and fixes. Actually, there should probably be 2 versions, the Chapter Approved official one and the beta-test version along with a response survey to let people respond more or less in real time to changes being piloted.

My suspicion is that GW wouldn't do something like this because managing that sort of historical change with a limited team would be incredibly tough. Not that other industries don't do it, but it's tough. And I think they would consider their development money better spent creating new and revised content for sale (e.g. new codices) than paying people to constantly tweak/revise the existing rules.

But there's always hope!

I guess the next realistic question would be, "Would you feel that the high and sometimes strange cost of the models would be justified if GW were to spend the time to monitor the metagame and constantly rebalance the rules?"

If the answer is a resounding "YES!" then perhaps a case can be made to GW to do that because it would positively affect the bottom line and demonstrate a different kind of investment in the opinions of the players.

Chaos Army Showcase with photos (Updated 2013/12/02)
"To endure one's self is perhaps the hardest task in the universe." Frank Herbert, 'Dune Messiah'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethklokk
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Originally Posted by Deathscythe4722
Could someone please call the police on this guy? I can hear the English Language screaming in pain. This has to be illegal somewhere.
Kreuger is offline  
post #169 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 06:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Doom wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 112
Reputation: 4
Default

Respect Kreuger !

That was a constructive post !

When I think about it, after the ever rising price, the rules where an aspect that I found disappointing in the third edition, and the sanitized aspect too.

In term of rules, I began with the 2nd edition, and trough the third to the fourth, it was feeling like an endless downward spiral. Things seemed to get better afterward, and when I found out about sixth and seventh edition, I was beginning wondering how many times will pass before they reinstate all the rules of the 2nd.
Doom wolf is offline  
post #170 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-09-15, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
nice boy, daft though !
 
bitsandkits's Avatar
bitsandkits's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,212
Reputation: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom wolf View Post
Jaded ? Heck, no !

The OP wanted to have an opinion if GW was doing right, I was just giving him my own. It just happen that I think they aren't doing right.


Now, the post who really pushed my berserk button was the one who said that we had to be grateful to have this hobby, whatever the price it demanded to us in money because some people in some poor world can't afford to buy themselves a meal.

It's smack me as an attempt to play on our inner culpability as an excuse to not critisize the economical politics of G.W. and accept whatever move they do to make more money.

Back earlier in the thread, you will find my first post here :

https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...171698&page=10

You made a point with the space marines trademark, but to me, you lost one with the "total free will" argument. I don't believe in "total free will" anyway. People make choice according to their capability, their mean and environnement, that doesn't stop them to feel frustration and anger when they know that the consequence of the self-fulfilling wish can be dire...

And truth is, yes, I can't afford this hobby because of it's prices of the mini. I'm not dirt poor, but I must make choice, and I've said it earlier, the price of the models just skyrocketing insanely for no reason at best, or outright lie at worse.

(I still laugh when I remember the one about a fantastic new material that accompanied the price rising of 20 or 25%... )

Oh yeah, and the Squat, I loved the Squat too...
why would you take up a hobby that you cant afford and then complain about the prices???

The prices GW set are not by accident, they are a publicly traded company and every year they post there results and they make very little in profit, they are not banking huge amounts of money and they are not doing anything that any other business out there doesnt do, they are producing models people want , the models are by far the best quality plastic models on the market, they have a vast and diverse range of armies in two settings giving you massive scope and make it easy to find an army for you and if you want to play for fun you can build and collect an army that is tottally unique to you.
You keep banging on about price rises, GW havent had a price rise on models already in the range for almost 3 years, granted some of the newer models have some hefty price tags, such as the new blood thirster , but when you compare the size of the model, the level of detail, the level of customisation and the sheer awesomeness factor it doesnt seem that expensive, its certainly far cheaper than the forgeworld version which it can almost see eye to eye with. Its also got a lot to compete with, the blood thirster is essentially a very generic deamon, based on tolkiens balrog/the Devil/ fire elemental, there are loads of third party versions and GW has released at least 2 versions in the past which despite common sense are still game legal, so this new Blood thirster has to compete for peoples money with all of the previous releases and third parties, this drives the price up further because the potential market is smaller.

but anyway, if you think GW is getting it wrong because of the prices thats your opinion



Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

HUGE BITZ RESTOCK NOW ON
bitsandkits is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome