GW finally getting it right? - Page 16 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #151 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-06-15, 09:46 PM
Senior Member
 
Einherjar667's Avatar
Einherjar667's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Western Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 1,459
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
@bitsandkits - per your original post, I doubt the fan base will ever really be done complaining. It does seem like GW might be producing things more in line with what the consumer generally speaking wants.

My guess would be that following the production of Dark Vengeance GW managed to revise their development pipe-line in a number of ways to streamline the design and production process in plastics. Working on this assumption it looks like they are able to bring new spiffy models to market. I would also hazard that this is the core of their business strategy "keep the consumer interested and excited." All of that is basically good. I think the remaining problem is, and will likely remain the cost.

The cost of the product seems astronomical. Considering GW is selling primarily plastic miniatures . . a few examples: 5 plastic Skullreaper models for $57.00 or any of the plastic terminators at 5 models for $50.00, the space marine tactical squad at 10 models for $40.00.

A lot of these are well designed and very cool, but has the production cost of plastic models really outstripped inflation so far? As far as I can tell the Khorne Berzerker box is right about inline with inflation at $37.25 for 12 Berzerkers, or 3.10 per model. And these are comparatively dated now. There's certainly an argument to be made for additional parts in these sets and the cost for producing them, but the costs seems to have much more to do with points value or number available in an army, or necessary e.g. the $30.00 plastic space marine captain.

That just seems like foolishness to me.

I'm sure there's an analyst somewhere looking at the purchase curve for models related to the number the army requires compared to the cost and they figured out about how far they can push it, but clearly a $30 Space marine captain is absurd compared to a $3.10 Berserker or even a $10.00 Skullreaper.

Other than the cost factors which I think will always be a sticking point, and where GW will always be willing to push juuuust a little harder I'd say they are doing a better job.

The stater sets are better than they ever have been. The models are beautiful and comparatively still a great deal. The books have only gotten better over the last 4 editions. Ironically, in my opinion, they have improved as they have gotten closer to 2nd edition again (now if they'd only dump AP value and return to save modifiers!). The book rule books though have gotten better. 3rd ed's was awful; ugly, hard to use, a poorly bound. Each iteration there after improved until they even added an index! 6th was a nice book but the rules needed tuning and balancing. And as I understand 7th ed sop far the new books are well made. GW listened that people wanted to split the rules from the other sections of the BRB and made the new version Rules, Hobby, and History.

And finally it seems like they are making moves towards enlivening the fluff of the world. It has been largely static for some 15 (or more) years and that represented a problem. Forge World and Black libaray branched backwards into 30k and GW will continue pushing the central stories of 40k and Fantasy battle forward. Hopefully there is enough movement to keep everyone interested and engaged.

TL;DR

Cost is, was, and will remain a problem.
Otherwise the game has been tightened and improved since the debacle of the 3rd edition rewrite and the cost of business (petroleum/plastics) appears to be decreasing so the future looks bright!

This post is well thought out. Definetly speaks a lot of truth to the philosophy behind what GW is getting at. Just posting to say i agree.
Einherjar667 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-06-15, 09:51 PM
Vaz
Senior Member
 
Vaz's Avatar
Vaz's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 12,830
Reputation: 79
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
is gw getting it right?? yes...people complained they dont get regular books,models etc etc
gw dont listen blah blah..
if gw isnt listening then why are we getting so many cool new things??
as for balance if this game was balanced it would be boring..
but the thing that annoys me the most about the balance argument is you CAN balance the game YOURSELF...write your own campaigns create the game style..
In my store i have had to create a teird level of gaming because people just cant cope with the vast amount of choices they now have..so they blame GW.
so now when they ask for a game they simply state the point and the level of game they wish to play..and then wait for a reply..it has it pros and cons..but so far its working..
so stop the bitching and be pro-active and play the game you want.
Also this is a hobby so either enjoy..or STFU!..cause quite frankly reading the same pathetically boring whinnying is just pointless.
Enjoy your toys and BE THANKFUL YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY THEM! cause there's many people who cant even afford to eat!
Get in the bin with that attitude. Just because some third world shit hole can't afford them by their circumstances means that those who are in position to rinse us of our hard earned money by providing sub standard shit.

Lets put it another way. You earn the money to buy a model, which you can supposedly paint with however you want. However, you're instead given a pile of still hot cow shit. By all accounts, you should be happy and grateful for that pile of faeces, because there are other people worse off?

Are you also saying that you can never be happy with anything because other people have been happier? I seriously fucking doubt it.

The best thing GW did with 7th edition was allow the mixing and matching of forces with the way the detachment and formations worked without going into Unbound territory. Not only could they produce "hot fixes" or "patches" in the form of supplements while encouraging the sales of things like White Dwarf, but they allowed people to field things like Ravenwing without being limited to the PoS rules in Dark Angels but still take some Dark Angel things.

Allies is meant to be utilised. I don't think that's because of intentional design however, but because they're tacitly holding their hands up saying "we don't have a fucking clue how to make our rules balanced, and so we're going to let you lot work it out and have your global meta's introduce balances and counters".

Put that into the corporate bullshit translator that's "you mugs are still buying our products, and now you're paying us even more to patch it!"

I don't think that's doing it right.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
Vaz is offline  
post #153 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-06-15, 10:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Moonschwine's Avatar
Moonschwine's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Near Bath UK
Posts: 682
Reputation: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Get in the bin with that attitude. Just because some third world shit hole can't afford them by their circumstances means that those who are in position to rinse us of our hard earned money by providing sub standard shit.

Lets put it another way. You earn the money to buy a model, which you can supposedly paint with however you want. However, you're instead given a pile of still hot cow shit. By all accounts, you should be happy and grateful for that pile of faeces, because there are other people worse off?

Are you also saying that you can never be happy with anything because other people have been happier? I seriously fucking doubt it.

The best thing GW did with 7th edition was allow the mixing and matching of forces with the way the detachment and formations worked without going into Unbound territory. Not only could they produce "hot fixes" or "patches" in the form of supplements while encouraging the sales of things like White Dwarf, but they allowed people to field things like Ravenwing without being limited to the PoS rules in Dark Angels but still take some Dark Angel things.

Allies is meant to be utilised. I don't think that's because of intentional design however, but because they're tacitly holding their hands up saying "we don't have a fucking clue how to make our rules balanced, and so we're going to let you lot work it out and have your global meta's introduce balances and counters".

Put that into the corporate bullshit translator that's "you mugs are still buying our products, and now you're paying us even more to patch it!"

I don't think that's doing it right.
Pretty much this.

Luxury hobby or not, there's alot of investment into the game which goes unappreciated. You just need to look at any Golden Daemon or read any half-baked fan fiction to see the level of love some people put into it.

What gets me everytime though is that rather than use the near endless ideas and manpower of the community, GW insist on driving their "vision" into the ground - just look at the crap thats puked out with the Digital IP nowadays - literally one of the most indepth fantasy settings on the market today is being turned into a poormans 3D Angry Birds. I would, hand on heart, honestly be surprised if at things like Gamesday (or Hamfest or whatever its called now) one of the top questions wasn't about rules balancing or "why the hell are you doing this?".

Even if they just threw something out in a White Dwarf and said "Go test this idea, leave feedback on this webpage here" and forced you to sign up to their site so they could market more stuff to you, people would feel alot happier - look at Forgeworld. They sheer tinkering they do to units is mind boggling, and you get alpha/beta/greenlight rules. I hate sounding negative but alot of "challenger" games to 40k and what not thrive on community feedback - do they listen to it all? No, but nearly every other game out there I know players say the same thing over and thats they feel like they are helping make the game rather than just being spoonfed often game breaking decisions.

Inspiring Quote:

"Ambition is the biggest killer of Momentum"

Active Projects:

The Catechized

Starting afresh with my Chaos Space Marines.

Project Log Link (Placeholder) -


Project Rebuild, Reboot, Recycle:

Stripping, rebuilding and remaking my Guard army.
Moonschwine is offline  
 
post #154 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-06-15, 11:21 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonschwine View Post
Even if they just threw something out in a White Dwarf and said "Go test this idea, leave feedback on this webpage here"
GW doing market research AND testing their ideas AND offering an open forum for opinion?

I want what you've got brother! Must be a blast

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP
ntaw is offline  
post #155 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 02:18 AM
Senior Member
 
fatmantis's Avatar
fatmantis's Flag is: New Zealand
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Shenzhen china
Posts: 1,755
Reputation: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
GW doing market research AND testing their ideas AND offering an open forum for opinion?

I want what you've got brother! Must be a blast
its a shame that gw cant do this. and why cant they do this..well just look at most of the threads here..if people could put forth their complaints in a manner that was not childish..spoilt or just whinny and whinge we might be able to have such a re-pore with gw..but alas..that will never ever EVER happen..
fatmantis is offline  
post #156 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 02:32 AM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
and why cant they do this.
They don't do it because they take all our money regardless. Forget all your passive aggressive name calling to the members of this forum involved in this thread, it's about dollars and has nothing to do with our

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
childish..spoilt or just whinny and whinge
complaints about this company that we still support despite its misgivings. Get off your high horse, buddy.

Also, I was joking when I posted that. Fuck I need to get the orange text colour back out...

EDIT: and it's rapport.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP

Last edited by ntaw; 03-07-15 at 02:38 AM.
ntaw is offline  
post #157 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 04:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Fallen's Avatar
Fallen's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,689
Reputation: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmantis View Post
its a shame that gw cant do this. and why cant they do this..well just look at most of the threads here..if people could put forth their complaints in a manner that was not childish.
GW doesn't because they decide not to, not because they can't. And that is effectively their motto with anything that is still stupidly wrong in the BRB or codexs (example Plasma Pistol costing 15 points STILL), which is my main gripe against them.

It shouldn't be too hard to state

"this is how you play the game, without anything 'cool' added" aka vanilla 40k/unbound 40k *** See more
"how to play the game, with superheavies/super monstrous creatues"
"how to play the game with allies"
"how to play the game with formations"
"how to play the game with a combination of the above"

***
^ THIS PART needs to be practically perfect. The community can fix minor bugs/OP-ness/UP-ness of units or rules, and be fairly competent and universal everywhere. We can't fix, together as one, huge issues. Because this area (the main game) is where there are what seems to be 1,000,000-ish issues that are solved with "roll a die".

This area also must be as clear cut so that one can easily figure out what the fuck happens when a player batch rolls saves when his unit has multiple armor saves, as an example, without having to argue and result back to "roll a die".

----

I love GW's models...I just wish that the core mechanics were not so unbalanced between game play (shooty vs assault) and did not have such a grayness to them for certain aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
Fallen is offline  
post #158 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 05:21 AM
Senior Member
 
fatmantis's Avatar
fatmantis's Flag is: New Zealand
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Shenzhen china
Posts: 1,755
Reputation: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
They don't do it because they take all our money regardless. Forget all your passive aggressive name calling to the members of this forum involved in this thread, it's about dollars and has nothing to do with our



complaints about this company that we still support despite its misgivings. Get off your high horse, buddy.

Also, I was joking when I posted that. Fuck I need to get the orange text colour back out...

EDIT: and it's rapport.
firstly i was agreeing with you.. and secondly i haven't "name called" anybody..just stating a fact,,when you read a lot of these comments its just how some of it comes across..thirdly im on no high horse..it really is so simple..not happy dont buy..why should the rest of us be bombarded with thread after thread of people spitting the dummy over GW business practice? its just the way it is..and probably how it will be..get on with life and be happy..be happy you can afford(or not) to participate in such a luxurious hobby..its a hobby..if you have to complain sooo much then this is not the hobby for you(not speaking to you..generalizing) really is that simple.

and sorry for a spelling mistake(s)..(whos on their high horse?)
fatmantis is offline  
post #159 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 05:35 AM
Critique for da CriticGod
 
Kreuger's Avatar
Kreuger's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
Posts: 3,350
Reputation: 43
Default

@fatmantis - I think you're being rather hyperbolic. GW "can't" do this not because we are all so childish and entitled but because the fan/consumer community is so invested in the world. GW are in a very difficult position. All along they have encouraged players to purchase the models, paint, convert, sculpt, and design their own background. All of this engages the creativity and passions of the fans/consumers.

Here's the tricky part of all this, when people invest that sort of time and effort into something they feel like they own part of it. You can think of this as "creative sweat equity." And this puts GW in a very difficult spot because on the one hand the fans are very invested in the world and their experience of the world and on the other GW have a business to run.

GW developed their business on the personal investment of their consumer community, but that community doesn't exist in a vacuum and has expectations of what the game is, was, and should be. Necessarily, some of those people will be disappointed with any changes, some will like the changes, and others regardless of like or dislike will be priced out of the hobby. With any new development that means you have quite a number of people who feel excluded from a hobby they feel very personally that they own.
All of those people will continue to have valid opinions, but it will always be difficult to get a clear read on such a polarized and emotionally invested group.

Chaos Army Showcase with photos (Updated 2013/12/02)
"To endure one's self is perhaps the hardest task in the universe." Frank Herbert, 'Dune Messiah'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethklokk
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Originally Posted by Deathscythe4722
Could someone please call the police on this guy? I can hear the English Language screaming in pain. This has to be illegal somewhere.

Last edited by Kreuger; 03-07-15 at 05:38 AM.
Kreuger is offline  
post #160 of 185 (permalink) Old 03-07-15, 06:13 AM
Senior Member
 
fatmantis's Avatar
fatmantis's Flag is: New Zealand
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Shenzhen china
Posts: 1,755
Reputation: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
@fatmantis - I think you're being rather hyperbolic. GW "can't" do this not because we are all so childish and entitled but because the fan/consumer community is so invested in the world. GW are in a very difficult position. All along they have encouraged players to purchase the models, paint, convert, sculpt, and design their own background. All of this engages the creativity and passions of the fans/consumers.

Here's the tricky part of all this, when people invest that sort of time and effort into something they feel like they own part of it. You can think of this as "creative sweat equity." And this puts GW in a very difficult spot because on the one hand the fans are very invested in the world and their experience of the world and on the other GW have a business to run.

GW developed their business on the personal investment of their consumer community, but that community doesn't exist in a vacuum and has expectations of what the game is, was, and should be. Necessarily, some of those people will be disappointed with any changes, some will like the changes, and others regardless of like or dislike will be priced out of the hobby. With any new development that means you have quite a number of people who feel excluded from a hobby they feel very personally that they own.
All of those people will continue to have valid opinions, but it will always be difficult to get a clear read on such a polarized and emotionally invested group.
well said..my point is that if people could present their complaints/opinions in a clear professional manner would they sit up and take notice? probably not..but when people complain and moan they way they do will that help any? definitely not.
The thing that people need to understand is GW is not a games company..yes there will be soooo many arguments to this..but at the end of the day they are a miniature company..the game is an excuse to buy more models..its all about perspective if you just look at this from a games point your always going to be unhappy..oh this is unfair etc etc.but if you look at it from the models perspective and getting to use these amazing models in a fun way then youll hopefully be happy as youll remember why you love painting etc. i hope that makes sense.
as ntaw said they take your money regardless..so its as you said a personal investment..either be happy with your investment or not.
fatmantis is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome