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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Default First Defeat, and it Hurt

I have been at my gaming club for 6 months now and I have always played Eldar, I always won fairly easily. I got bored of being unbeaten so I swapped my Eldar for Space Marines, which I have some experience with 5th edition.

My first game using them was yesterday and I got beat and I got beat bad!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are space marines that rubbish or are Eldar over powered?

The dice were not in my favour but I won't use that as an excuse.

How do other people find marines in 7th when compared to other races out there?

Eldar W15-D3-L1 no longer play

Marines W9-D1-L4

Nids W1-D1-L1 no longer play

Chaos W1-D0-L0
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raven_jim View Post
are Eldar over powered?
Yes.

Marines are fairly good to be honest - They have good and viable options for a all-around army and they seem to be fairing decent in the competitive setting as well. I have tried to play against lists that was horri-bad and lists that wiped me off the board. It all depends on the player.

Eldar on the other hand... Well let's just say they got a codex that set a entire new standard for good units and incredible army rules. The problem is not the Eldar codex, as it is a really well-written codex with good choices across the board - The problem is that the standard they set, didn't carry over to other armies.

Just my thoughts mind you
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:51 AM
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I collect both eldar and space marines and I find that my eldar win a lot more battles than my space marines. I'd like to think I'm quiet experienced with both armies. Eldar imo, when there good, there very good. Space marines though are very meh.

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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That's the feeling I got, Eldar are quite easy to get right. But I suppose the Marine victories are more rewarding... And I do love a challenge

Eldar W15-D3-L1 no longer play

Marines W9-D1-L4

Nids W1-D1-L1 no longer play

Chaos W1-D0-L0
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 10:56 AM
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The game doesn't favour "all comers" lists particularly well - it works better with dedicated tasks, and min-maxed points options. All lists need to cater for all eventualities, but looking at Eldar, whose units, by their very definition, are dedicated to one particular job, this problem is exacerbated and highlighted even more.

Take a look at it this way. Space Marines Tactical Squads are designed to be able to take on any foe the enemies of the Imperium can throw against them - equipped with Bolters, they're extremely effective, and with access to weapons like Lascannons and Missile Launchers, they can take down Monsters and Tanks, and special weapons like Plasma guns lets them be a massive threat even to things like Terminators, or Ork Nobz. That's fine, and perfect from a fluff perspective, similar to how soldiers for today are equipped with rifles, and have access to LMG's, and rockets to deal with harder threats.

However, from a gaming point of view, that "all comers" squad is wasting half of its potential. Without access to split firing, as can happen in real life, that Lascannon is wasted shooting at a horde of hormagaunts while the rest of the squad guns them down, or those bolters just ping harmlessly off the front armour of a land raider.

So, that means that tactical squad's strengths aren't really all that "tactical" or flexible, and can only really be built in one particular format - which takes us back to the days of 3rd and 4th edition, when squads were no larger than 5 men, and took Lascannon and Plasma gun to maximise that option. Now we're "incentivized" to take more marines due to the points/model tax, which channels them into min-maxing a particular squad into anti-infantry purely, which tends to limit them to Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher (primarily using Frags, although it can, should opportunity arise, use Kraks, but the difficulty of penetrating and causing adequate damage is almost a nonentity), with a Flamer or Plasma. If they're targeting heavy armour they're doing it wrong.

So, on paper, they're flexible, but in the game meta, they're limited to anti-infantry duty, where their S4 AP5 Rapid Fire weapons are somewhat effective. Now, compare that to Eldar, who have units who are dedicated to anti-infantry - either as Dark Reapers, or Warp Spiders with Rending S6 Assault 2 and a Teleport to get close. Eldar do dedicated jobs better than units which are "balanced" to doing multi-task jobs.

If you need armour destroying in a Space Marine army, you have access to several options - usually Devastator Lascannon squads, TriPlas Predators, MeltaDreads in Pods, or Sternguards in squads with Combi-Melta. Compare that to Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers to ensure they get there. 5 Fire Dragons costs 110pts. For anti infantry, you have Warp Spiders at 190pts, which isn't far off the same cost as the tactical squad - but the Tac Squad is putting out 16 S4 AP5 shots, Flamer and a S4 AP5 Small Blast while the Warp Spiders are churning out 20 S6 Quasi-Rending shots for roughly the same cost.

Yes, there are other mitigating factors, but a combination of speed, low points costs, effective transport vehicles, and psychic powers means that Eldar are better doing dedicated tasks, and Marines can only hope to catch up.



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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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From a gaming point of view, that "all comers" squad is wasting half of its potential.
I think you hit the nail on the head with Marines, from a fluff point of view, they are a very flexible unit but in reality that versatility means nothing when you can only shoot at one target.

Most armies give you the option to be field lots of units (hordes) like nids and orks or on the other scale you have a very elite list like Chaos or Grey Knights. With this you can make your horde or elites shooty of fighty

with marines I feel you are jack of all trades but master of none...

Eldar W15-D3-L1 no longer play

Marines W9-D1-L4

Nids W1-D1-L1 no longer play

Chaos W1-D0-L0
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 01:00 PM
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Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead. In my games I've noticed that my Scouts are serving a far better role due to their abilities to move in and around the table at the start of the game and my Veteran units like Sternguard & Vanguard are moping the floors wherever they go. Vanguard units with Kantor having joined them are a problem with the attacks in CC they're producing(on the charge) and Sternguard are a ranged Swiss Army Knife of Special Issue Ammo and Combis. Not to mention I'm usually getting my units in range by way of Drop Pods in low point games and Landraiders in higher ones.
Eldar and most other armies are an issue for the Tactical squad, but, they're hardly the only unit worth taking
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Now, compare that to Eldar, who have units who are dedicated to anti-infantry - either as Dark Reapers, or Warp Spiders with Rending S6 Assault 2 and a Teleport to get close.
But bear in mind that those Warp Spiders have a rule that specifically makes them S7 against tank (or low-I) enemies--meaning they also excel in the role of light anti-tank. And it's not just that they have a teleport, but also Battle Focus--not only are they better at shooting than a normal infantry squad, they're also 3-4x as fast. And they have 3+ armor, like Marines, so practically their only downsides are the 1 lower Toughness and that they don't have ATSKNF. For roughly the same cost.

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Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead.
I've seen a compelling argument that with Rhinos and Combat Squads, you have 3 Objective Secured scoring units there that mean opponents have to split their fire to a number of different targets--if they're running a list reliant on a few MCs or a Deathstar, or something, they won't be able to drag all those units off of objectives too easily, especially in a Maelstrom mission where you can be scoring points all game, rather than having to hold out until the very end.

...still, none of those 3 OS units are very tough.

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jace of Ultramar View Post
Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead.
Mossy has it right. Objective Secured is a massive boon to armies that favour Troops and Transports over Elites, Fast Attack, or Heavy support. Absolutely having to do critical damage to multiple units (including some that have ATSKNF, who bounce back quickly) can be a daunting task even if you're well equipped. It's a swarm tactic, individually weak but together pose a threat. I've had a OS Rhino Tank Shock a squad off an Objective at the end of Turn 5 before, lost the game because of it despite still being close enough to contest: my squad didn't have OS.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 09:43 PM
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I counter the argument that the Tac squad is dead by pointing out that unlike the Scout Squad, they are massively more survivable, maneuverable, and capable of putting out more damage than an equivalent points of Scouts. Running Raven Guard often sees me with 20 Tac Marines on the table, either in Rhinos or Drop Pods and both focusing on the same area of the battlefield. That plus Sternguard, Devs, Min/Maxed ASM and Bikes means that there's a LOT of power armour on the field, and the Tacs are able to support the other units in whatever way is necessary - whether that's adding 20-30 S4 attacks to an assault, a Powerfist/Meltabomb for a target of opportunity, or simply hiding on 3 separate Objectives with one FOC choice.

Marines require more effort than Eldar to win, in some ways. You need to practise with your choice of Chapter Tactics and write a list that accomodates them well.


@Vaz the specialisation of the Eldar can be a hinderance as much as it is a help - the only reason they're getting away with it at the moment is because several key units are viciously undercosted, and they're the units that are most flexible - Serpents, Spiders and Knights are equally good at murdering infantry or vehicles and are the worst offenders. If Banshees were better, you still wouldn't see them in lists because they can only do one thing. As someone who played Eldar all through 3rd-5th I can tell you that specialization WITHOUT flexibility was an awful way to run an army - for example if your opponent managed to kill your Fire Dragons you had literally nothing else in the codex to deal with AV14 or ID-vulnerable T4 Multiwounds like Paladins or Nobz.

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Last edited by Sethis; 09-11-14 at 09:50 PM.
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