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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-11-14, 10:22 PM
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Thus far for me, my Scouts (which I failed to previously mention are 5 man Sniper/Missile units) have given me far better wins than my Tactical Squads have done in my past 10+ games in the month or move I've been playing on a regular basis. That would be why I put the IMHO after the "Tactical Squads are dead". I personally can't see spending points on them any longer while my current set up is working rather well.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-12-14, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jace of Ultramar View Post
Thus far for me, my Scouts (which I failed to previously mention are 5 man Sniper/Missile units) have given me far better wins than my Tactical Squads have done in my past 10+ games in the month or move I've been playing on a regular basis. That would be why I put the IMHO after the "Tactical Squads are dead". I personally can't see spending points on them any longer while my current set up is working rather well.
Funnily enough I've just created a new list for my second bout at my gaming club. My tactical squad as halved and my scouts have doubled in numbers, i even considered dropping the tactical marines. I can see my tactical squad gathering dust with 7th

Eldar W15-D3-L1 no longer play

Marines W9-D1-L4

Nids W1-D1-L1 no longer play

Chaos W1-D0-L0
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-12-14, 10:21 AM
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Why not combat squad them? Have the las/ML in one group hunting armour and special flamer/plasma hunting infantry? Also easier to specialize tacs to infantry hunting. Flamer + heavy Bolter.

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-12-14, 11:38 AM
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You're still spending 65~ points on models doing nothing.
@Sethis - a very good point - one I meant to expand upon but clearly forgot. Spiders and Serpents are cheap as chips, and maximising their use is one way to get them to work. That clearly leaves one glaring weakness - and that's AV14 Spam, oddly enough, non-Deathwing Assault Dark Angels being one of the better lists to take against Eldar - but that is gotten around by Fire Dragons (who can take more Serpents, Serpents with Lances), and Knights.

Space Marines need a massive shake up - to the extent that Sternguard become pretty much the baseline Marine, but with a large points drop, and Scouts return to their WS4/BS4 self. Las/Plas spam needs to make a return, because currently, what Space Marines bring to the table is all overcosted for their abilities.

I've got to admit that I played more Legion lists than anything else, and Eldar doesn't feature as much in those games, and that Legion lists don't tend to function at a points level any lower than 2K, and arguably 2.5-3K for the most fun, thanks to the points taxes - Praetors/300pts on Boltguns before you can even afford to get anything nice and killy, etc, but what's noticeable is that the Boltgun, and the "much vaunted" resilience of Power Armour is hardly what it used to be. At least back in 3rd edition, Power Armour wasn't counted by anything sans Battle Cannons or 1 shot AT weapons, pretty much. Now, AP3 Blast weapons are a dime a dozen, and due to their medium Strength, lets them work in a light AT fashion, to take out transports like Chimera or Rhino's, and still wipe out swathes of infantry.

So, the strengths of the tactical squad are completely negated by the game. There are 2 stand out options in the Space Marine list - their Flying Potato cheap as chips flyers, and their Artillery.

Flexibility - The game favours specialist weaponry/tasks. Having to choose before game to be AT/AI means that the flexibility is completely gone.
Boltguns - Increased access to cover negates AP5 on weak troops, rate of fire not enough to gun down the hordes.
Toughness - Easy access to high volume low-AP shots/wounds forces units to use cover, which Scouts use better, and as there's no save anyway, you're better using that. Access to Torrent/Template Ignores cover AP3 weapons on high durability units means that even cover is not available. The change to AP for Melee weapons means that at-Initiative AP2 is hard to get, and rarely in any sort of number, which means that loading Power Swords is not as much of an answer as it used to be to deal with them, and assault in general is pretty weak (as a result of that and many more changes, like random charge etc), meaning that shooting takes an even bigger slant, and needs to cover a gap that Banshees used to fill - and high volumes of AP2 fire means that it cuts down the more expensive marines even more quickly.

There's a reason that Drop Podding Alpha Strike Sternguard is one of the most popular builds for Space Marines, and that's because it;

a) reduces the number of shooting phases your Sternguard have to face by 2
b) you get to put powerful AT in the most powerful formation
c) you're forcing your opponent to react to your potential movement - which usually means bubblewrapping units around valuable tanks etc - perfect for allied guard medusa's, tau riptides, eldar Suncannon Knights, and Marine Artillery to put heavy damage on them, or leaving them isolated, and to borrow a term - get them ganked. Conversely it also allows you to place units between intervening terrain to prevent them being slapped silly by the enemy templates.
d) They can be both AT with combiweapons+melta, AI with Bolters/Combi Weapons+flamer/Plasma, or Anti heavy infantry with Combi-Weapons+Plasma - or even at a push, AA, thanks to double Flakk Missiles. Add on that there's a chance of first blood as a result of this, and linebreaker, as well as removing the enemies access to their natural objective should you do well enough, and you're golden.

Vanguard and ASM are kind of poor - without some form of assault from deep strike, they're just expensive marines until that point. Sure, they can kind of move quick, and throw out a ton of attacks, should they all get there - but a canny opponent is just going to negate 150pts worth of models with a single AP3 Large blast.

It's a similar point as well - in Legion lists, in a World Eaters List, I have Assault Marines, or I have Tactical Squads with BP+CCW. Assault Marines have Rage, 1 attack base, and 2 Close Combat Weapons - 4 attacks on the charge, + Hammer of Wrath - a full squad of 20, with no upgrades is putting out 100 S4 attacks. Tactical Squads have the same, but no HoW - so is putting out 80. The difference is about 1 extra dead marine in combat, for a further ~75pts or so IIRC, and yet they die just as easily. A Tactical Squad conversely can have something like a Apothecary added for 5+ FNP, Interceptor, A 2+ armour save on the sergeant, has access to fury of the legion for double shots before an assault, and if you really feel like flashing the cash, have Bolters as well (but that doesn't really fit a WE army, which benefits from having more bodies on the field).

Space Marines suck. They're capable, and they're nowhere nearCSM, Orks, Guard or Nids weak (read Monobuild armies), but they're not capable of swinging with Daemons, Tau, or Eldar.



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a rectum spectrum, if you will
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-14, 08:57 AM
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Space Marines suck. They're capable, and they're nowhere near CSM, Orks, Guard or Nids weak (read Monobuild armies), but they're not capable of swinging with Daemons, Tau, or Eldar.
I think that's selling Marines a bit short - I don't have access to data across the world, because that's hard to find, but Space Marines did really well at BAO.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/...-top-10-lists/

And for more detail:

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tourn.../4/leaderboard

I think Marines are perfectly capable of swinging with the big boys of Tau and Eldar - it's just rarer to find good Marine players since so many people have them. SM is to me a better internally balanced book than Eldar (probably not quite as good as Tau, but then Tau is an exceptionally well-balanced book except for the anomalous Broadsides and Riptides). Marines pay a bunch for T4/3+, or T5/3+ for Bikers, which is a really nice thing on ATKSNF dudes in an objective-based environment. 3+ isn't the be all and end all, sure, but it's very resilient to the kind of firepower that everyone is bringing in 7th which is buckets of Str6/7 shots; those guns don't tend to have an AP value worth mentioning, so you can often afford to place objectives out of cover, making life a bit harder for your opponent to score them.

Marines aren't winning every game ever, but nobody is so that's an unreasonable expectation.

Of course, I may be totally wrong and BAO is just a complete curveball in terms of results.

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Last edited by MidnightSun; 09-17-14 at 09:00 AM.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-14, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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By the emperor I won!
Second game and tabled them, with ease...
Learned how to use the army properly and I did much better, although my opponent made lots of poor judgements. I still feel they are weaker and against and equal opponent they wouldn't of done as well.

Still not convinced with marines though, but as I've learned today, it's not so much your army it's the general your facing. I'm sure someone must have a devine quote for this?

Eldar W15-D3-L1 no longer play

Marines W9-D1-L4

Nids W1-D1-L1 no longer play

Chaos W1-D0-L0
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-14, 11:24 PM
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I'm tempted to look at BAO as a bit of an outlier. There are armies which were fairly capable of tabling the marines there. The Lack of Tau/dar leads me to think that many were trying to win without being Tau/dar, but the netlists there were pretty obvious (Baron+Objective Secured Jetbikes per ex), but suffered from people not actually knowing what to do with them. Then again, local metas are well away from global minmax netlisting.

On another note - well done, raven_jim. 40K (and fantasy) is one of those games where losing is as much a victory as loosing in that it's obvious to recognise bits where you're weak and how to change to counter that. The weak side is of course, it's effectively pay-to-win, where unless you someone fall into the most optimal build, you will have to buy X unit, and not take Y unit that you already have.



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-18-14, 03:25 AM
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Feel many of the traditional armies have been nerfed. But I think its always fun to have a fun army and competitive army. Honestly the more active your gamers group is the more you guys can have fun and enjoy it.

But I see your beef, if I still modeled and played games to be competitive I'd hate warhammer. Thank god they have other aspects to it including the lore.
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