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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-18-14, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
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Default Competitive IG/AM Questions

So it seems the new dex is more an update than a sweeping revamp (which I'm glad about) and I'm keen to start my IG project soon. Though I haven't seen the new codex I've read about a lot of the changes and have some questions regarding IG in the current meta. What I'd like most of all is a list that can counter all/most of the scary 6ed stuff that some armies have huge difficulty with- stuff like knights, wraithknights, riptides, FMC spam, flyer spam, superheavies etc. but with a classic sort of list that uses only the AM codex and ideally doesn't use any flyers

Leman Russes
How viable are battle tanks and vanquishers? I don't see the classic battle tank appearing in lists very often, or the vanquisher. Would a vanquisher with lascannon and multi melta sponsons be a wasteful point sink? I really like its potential for hunting knights, wraithknights, riptides, wave serpents and all kinds of MC. Are there better ways of spending those points?

Anti air
Are vendettas by far the best way to shoot down enemy air? What other options are people using?

Heavy Weapon squads
How to arm?

Scout sentinels
Same question. I'm liking missile launchers on these guys for the AP against monstrous creatures, though I was planning to distribute ML's throughout my infantry units too.

Attacking forward objectives
How? I love the idea of a chimera with two heavy flamers carrying infantry though I'm not sure that's very sensible. Don't know how I'd arm the guys inside either, or even what to put inside it

Specific enemy units

Finally, how do guard best deal with the following things:

Imperial knights
Wraithknights
Wave serpents
Riptides

^ Responses to any of the above would be much appreciated!
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-18-14, 02:42 AM
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Classic Battle Tanks are fairly well loved. I don't know about the Vanquisher honestly, but you can probably get a lot of mileage out of it if Pask is driving.

Vendettas, Hydras, Aegis with Autocannons or if FW is allowed some of those flyers or the Sabre Defense Platforms.

Autocannons are popular for HWS because of the extra volume of shots making them statistically more accurate than Lascannons and having a pretty good utility against a lot of things.

Autocannons are pretty popular for Sentinels but ML may have some utility. Expect them to die a lot.

While never playing with Guard before, I've played against them and what was usually used against me where either Vets in Chimeras to move forward and secure things (after my stuff was murdered away from the objective it possible) or by running a blob onto it (Move! Move! Move! works well for making this work even faster).

Generally Guard kill things by drowning them in saves/shots. Buy lots of dice.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-18-14, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squire View Post

Leman Russes
How viable are battle tanks and vanquishers? I don't see the classic battle tank appearing in lists very often, or the vanquisher. Would a vanquisher with lascannon and multi melta sponsons be a wasteful point sink? I really like its potential for hunting knights, wraithknights, riptides, wave serpents and all kinds of MC. Are there better ways of spending those points?

Honestly, vanquisher is not so good. for antitank you just want vendettas or melta tempestus, imo. the LRBT is so vanilla it will always come handy. Never forget about the punisher either (see below)

Anti air
Are vendettas by far the best way to shoot down enemy air? What other options are people using?
vendetta is gold. Multirole antitank/antiai/transport...hell yeah. Also, aegis+quuad and..punisher. A simple punisher is capable of bringing down any flier (wich is not AV12) in a volley and also can be used as anti infantry. for his cost is just good (just 1 per list, but we should consider it)

Heavy Weapon squads
How to arm?
same as before. if you take them, go autocannon. forget about the flak missile, mortars are 15 pts overpriced, lascannon are a paper-cannon (glass would be stronger)
Scout sentinels
Same question. I'm liking missile launchers on these guys for the AP against monstrous creatures, though I was planning to distribute ML's throughout my infantry units too.
i always go naked multilaser and i'm always happy. lots of shooting, able to take out veicles on rear arc, able of putting a wound on that MC, cheap as hell. 3 units of 3 with multilaser is just 315 pts...and you have a goddam outflanker nastyness right there.

Attacking forward objectives
How? I love the idea of a chimera with two heavy flamers carrying infantry though I'm not sure that's very sensible. Don't know how I'd arm the guys inside either, or even what to put inside it

Chimers, imo,m should always take heavy bolter/multilaser. since the hatch has been nerfed, my veterans are going 2 plasmaguns + heavy flamer. Multirole unit. You hit from inside with plasmas and overwatch with flamer. also, since vets are an elite unit, i use them as objective takers and an heavy flamer for that 5th turn assault is gold.

Specific enemy units

Finally, how do guard best deal with the following things:

Imperial knights melta tempestus/ vendettas (high mobility means fucking the ion shield)
Wraithknights krak missiles with "Bring it Down" and chemcannons(?)/ vendettas
Wave serpents as always, autocannon galore
Riptides krak missiles with "Bring it Down" and chemcannons(?)/ vendettas
All the above can also be ass-spanked by a dose of manticore (and some luck, as always)

^ Responses to any of the above would be much appreciated!
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting, thanks guys.

I think I read the punisher became significantly cheaper, didn't it? I prefer the exterminator in the old dex but I'd have to rethink that if the punisher is more appropriately costed. With heavy bolters it could get 14.5 S5 hits per turn, or 4.833 on flyers if necessary.

I see the appeal of autocannons, but wraithknights, riptides and any MC's with a 3+ or better will shrug off autocannon fire. The way the game is going I expect more units along the lines of the existing big models to appear, so I'm leaning towards krak missiles and lascannons

I can't help comparing mutlilaser scout sentinels with dakkafexes, and I think I'd take a dakkafex over four ML sentinels. At least with nids it's easy to know which weapons to take, having all of the awesome human weapons on offer is a headache

Vets in a chimera seems pretty solid for forward objectives.

I like hydras for AA. I hope they haven't become more expensive. A pair of hydras to take off a few HP's with a punisher to finish anything off seems like a decent combo, and I guess IG/AM can put out so much high strength shooting it wouldn't be a big deal to snap shot some more units if a flyer is reduced to one HP
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 01:02 PM
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I think I might start a fairly in-depth discussion on each unit in the codex in tactics subforum soon. All theoryhammer at this point, but it will be good to discuss each unit and people's thoughts on how they think they will work now with the new codex.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 06:43 PM
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The easiest way to deal with fliers in the new dex is to double up on the master of the fleet as it stacks and if you can pass 2 ld9 tests the chance of getting fliers in on reserves is remote and gives you a chance to just kill everything else.
Obviously theres a trade off as you can't get get a tank ace, but another good combo is 1 master of the fleet to mess with reserves and an allied wolf priest with chooser of the slain to mess with scouts/ infiltrators.

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-19-14, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squire View Post
Leman Russes
How viable are battle tanks and vanquishers? I don't see the classic battle tank appearing in lists very often, or the vanquisher. Would a vanquisher with lascannon and multi melta sponsons be a wasteful point sink? I really like its potential for hunting knights, wraithknights, riptides, wave serpents and all kinds of MC. Are there better ways of spending those points?
If you're bringing Pask, the Punisher is terrifying. If the tank hasn't got Pask in it, then Executioners, Punishers, Demolishers and maybe Eradicators (if you fight mainly xenos - the Eradicator is brutal to almost all xenos infantry) are your best bet.

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Anti air
Are vendettas by far the best way to shoot down enemy air? What other options are people using?
The best are Sabre Weapons Platforms. Vendettas are still a solid pick. Alternatives? Allies, I'd guess.

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Heavy Weapon squads
How to arm?
Don't - they evaporate. If you must must bring them, I'd go with Mortars, because then you can at least hide them somewhere and not have them all die on turn one.

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Scout sentinels
Same question. I'm liking missile launchers on these guys for the AP against monstrous creatures, though I was planning to distribute ML's throughout my infantry units too.
I've always been a fan of the Multi-Laser, but since they're so versatile I think the best advice would be to arm them with whatever gun you're missing from the rest of the list.

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Attacking forward objectives
How? I love the idea of a chimera with two heavy flamers carrying infantry though I'm not sure that's very sensible. Don't know how I'd arm the guys inside either, or even what to put inside it
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Imperial knights
Meltaguns, and a bunch of 'em. If you can get side shots with Autocannons or Lascannons, that can work too. Try and surround them with guns so their Ion Shield is minimized.

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Wraithknights
Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, Guard Blob, Lascannons. Heavy guns in general.

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Originally Posted by Squire View Post
Wave serpents
Whatever guns you usually use to bring down medium vehicles. Preferably something with Ignores Cover, but weight of fire works just as well.

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Riptides
Lascannons and combat.

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Originally Posted by neilbatte View Post
The easiest way to deal with fliers in the new dex is to double up on the master of the fleet as it stacks and if you can pass 2 ld9 tests the chance of getting fliers in on reserves is remote and gives you a chance to just kill everything else.
5+, with any modifiers your opponent's bringing (and with anything more than one Flyer, he should probably be bringing reserve manipulation) isn't a desperately effective anti-air defence. It's good if you're already bringing anti-air and two CCS, but I don't think I'd want to use up my HQ slots for -2 to reserves.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-20-14, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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Got hold of the codex today, not a lot of surprises I didn't know about but that's a relief really. All I wanted from this new dex was a few adjustments of what was already a good codex

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I think I might start a fairly in-depth discussion on each unit in the codex in tactics subforum soon. All theoryhammer at this point, but it will be good to discuss each unit and people's thoughts on how they think they will work now with the new codex.
I hope you do that. Reading the codex today not a whole lot has changed, but the meta has so a detailed guide would be awesome


@neilbatte

I think I can definitely make space for one master of the fleet. He seems good value for the disruption he could cause, and if the opponent isn't using reserves (or I don't care about them) I could get my scout sentinels onto the table more reliably


@MidnightSun

Thanks!

I don't know what it is about the punisher I don't like. With sponsons, 29 S5 shots is pretty good, but it just strikes me as a bit boring I think. I really like executioner though, that seems like a great tank. With plasma cannon sponsons it's a bit pricey but 5 plasma blasts would be hell for elite infantry, and I imagine it's good against MC's, armour and even horde infantry.

I can see why people aren't keen on the vanquisher but with multi melta sponsons and a lascannon it's only 165 points now. With a tank commander for BS4 that's some scary anti armour shooting for under 200 points.

I see your point about heavy weapon squads. It seems like there's no role they can be given that couldn't be better filled by a tank. Mortars sound like they'd be reasonable at least, but then I can't think of a better unit for the 'bring it down' and 'fire on my target' orders

That blob sounds awesome. Do you think conscripts become viable with the drop in points?
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-20-14, 05:15 PM
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I don't know what it is about the punisher I don't like. With sponsons, 29 S5 shots is pretty good, but it just strikes me as a bit boring I think. I really like executioner though, that seems like a great tank. With plasma cannon sponsons it's a bit pricey but 5 plasma blasts would be hell for elite infantry, and I imagine it's good against MC's, armour and even horde infantry.
Yeah, the Executioner points at things and they die. The Punisher's neat because it's either cheap and puts out a bunch of shots, or is more expensive with Pask and brutalises almost any infantry you point it at. They're probably the tank that gains the most from a Primaris Psyker, along with the Executioner (Gets Hot really sucks).

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I can see why people aren't keen on the vanquisher but with multi melta sponsons and a lascannon it's only 165 points now. With a tank commander for BS4 that's some scary anti armour shooting for under 200 points.
It's pretty good anti-tank, but is it better than your Melta squads or Manticores or Autocannons or Vendettas? I don't think so, but I haven't tried either of them out, so my opinions no more valid than yours.

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I see your point about heavy weapon squads. It seems like there's no role they can be given that couldn't be better filled by a tank. Mortars sound like they'd be reasonable at least, but then I can't think of a better unit for the 'bring it down' and 'fire on my target' orders
Hide your HWTs in your Guard squads. Besides that, how many Orders are you actually using each turn? It's not *that* often I see people needing to use an Ordered squad of HWTs to bring down a vehicle or tought target.

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That blob sounds awesome. Do you think conscripts become viable with the drop in points?
No. Guardsmen are way, way better than Conscripts for the price they pay, and part of what makes the Guard blob so good is it's special/heavy weapons and Power Axes.

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 09:32 PM
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I tend to use 2 to 4 lascannon hwt in most games hidden in ruin area terrain for survivability along with master of ord company command.
This is in addition to wyverns and russes (wyvern in squadron) plus hellhounds gives the enemy one hell of a target priority issue in my experience
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