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post #21 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 02:01 PM
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Thats what the supplements are.
I know, doesn't mean I can't dislike them for it

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How do you make playing Night Lords seem different to Red Corsairs other than the paint scheme? If they had a supplement giving them their own warlord traits and artefacts I'd be satisfied.
Well, I guess you just don't take Possessed or take more Raptors or whatever. You can't really generalise - there are a huge number of different views and factions within the Night Lords and within the Corsairs, and some of them are bound to be alike. There's a limited number of ways to wage war, after all.

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I like the supplements, I'd like to see more of them. The BL supplement hasn't invalidated Abaddon for me - I still take him if I want to. But as I'm running my NL as chosen, the BL supplement has enabled me to take my night lords without abaddon. It's not taken anything away, now I have more choices.
If I want to run chosen as troops in a 2k game, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Abaddon to be there every single time. He might want a to book time off to go on holiday/move house/redecorate/put up skulls for the seasonal holiday etc
This has been a common complaint with Special Characters, but I really do think it makes them less special to take all the 'special' rules from them and give it as an army-wide rule in a supplement. Yeah, you can take Abaddon, but there's less incentive. Abaddon is a combat dude who gives transferable fearless, punches pretty well, and makes Chosen into Troops. Before, you took him because you wanted one or more of those attributes. Now? Well, a 65pt Chaos Lord from Black Legion is a dude who gives transferable fearless and makes Chosen into Troops. Is Abaddon worth what, 210pts of punches? Not really, no - you have to be pretty fucking good at punches to be worth 210pts and have no other benefits.

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post #22 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 02:03 PM
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Ah, so we reach the actual problem.

People don't want supplements because they want flavour and theme, they want supplements to make their shitty pet army into the new Tau. Well sadly, that's not how the game works, and it never will. Some armies are better than others, and some units are better than others.
Fair enough on the point of some armies being weaker/stronger than others. Definitely not the case with wanting a supplement because I want my Khronies to be the new Tau.


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post #23 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 02:07 PM
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Fair enough on the point of some armies being weaker/stronger than others. Definitely not the case with wanting a supplement because I want my Khronies to be the new Tau.
So... what's the problem?

If you want a Khorne army, bring a Juggerlord, Berzerkers, and dudes with the Mark of Khorne. Bam, you have a Khorne army. And guess what? It's different to Typhus, three units of Plague Marines in Rhinos, three squads of Plague Zombies, and Obliterators. And you know the weird thing? That's not the same as Fabius, 20 Enhanced Marines, 5-man Noise Marine units and 15 Spawn. Well fuck me sideways, I just made three themed lists from the basic book.

Not aimed at you, venomlust, more a depiction of my view on the situation.

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post #24 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 02:19 PM
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This has been a common complaint with Special Characters, but I really do think it makes them less special to take all the 'special' rules from them and give it as an army-wide rule in a supplement. Yeah, you can take Abaddon, but there's less incentive. Abaddon is a combat dude who gives transferable fearless, punches pretty well, and makes Chosen into Troops. Before, you took him because you wanted one or more of those attributes. Now? Well, a 65pt Chaos Lord from Black Legion is a dude who gives transferable fearless and makes Chosen into Troops. Is Abaddon worth what, 210pts of punches? Not really, no - you have to be pretty fucking good at punches to be worth 210pts and have no other benefits.
Abaddon gets Init 6 in termie armour,4w and eternal warrior, with the 3rd best punches in the game (behind Swarmy and a DP) and his warlord trait of preferred enemy vs space marines (which is gold against SM's) if you keep your army in a 2 foot patch of board. If you take the BL supplement you lose the black mace, the burning brand and you have to spend a tax on VOTLW as well so it's not quite invalidating him. If you take a generic lord (as I've been doing) I normally give him artefacts too, so they could be offset by taking Abaddon and doing the army in the vanilla dex.
If you want to do BL chosen spam, it doesn't save much on the Abby tax. You don't see much more on the table.
It's just the difference between strawberry and raspberry.
Not to mention, the supplement costs 30...

Last edited by Gret79; 02-27-14 at 02:32 PM.
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post #25 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 03:20 PM
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How about less cunty bickering and more on topic gw love.

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post #26 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 03:26 PM
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So... what's the problem?

If you want a Khorne army, bring a Juggerlord, Berzerkers, and dudes with the Mark of Khorne. Bam, you have a Khorne army. And guess what? It's different to Typhus, three units of Plague Marines in Rhinos, three squads of Plague Zombies, and Obliterators. And you know the weird thing? That's not the same as Fabius, 20 Enhanced Marines, 5-man Noise Marine units and 15 Spawn. Well fuck me sideways, I just made three themed lists from the basic book.

Not aimed at you, venomlust, more a depiction of my view on the situation.
No worries. Yeah, those are themed lists, alright. I just want more Khorne stuff. Yes, I can always convert things and then have them count-as, but that isn't quite the same as having more goodies and rules to set your army apart.

I want an army with 2 Juggernaut Lords. I also love the idea of allies, but don't really want to stray from CSM/Daemons... maybe traitor guard some day. Black Legion has allowed me to take a second Juggerlord with good (but pricey) artifacts, so ultimately I can do what I like in a semi-inferior (but at least possible) way. But Black Legion isn't the same as a Khorne-themed thing, which is really what I want.

Berzerkers on Juggernauts if I'm dreaming, warlord traits, and some solid artifacts with prices that reflect their utility. Some cheaper but weaker artifacts would be nice, too. Not ALL 30+ point sinks. And also, none of them are allowed to be worthless (dreaming again). How about a new Independent Character with a unique combination of rules? Nothing overpowered, just something interesting or unexpected. Maybe something like Chapter Tactics for each CSM traitor legion/supplement, too. Not unreasonable.

Are any of these things necessary? No. Can I get by just fine without them? Sure. But GW is constantly releasing new and awesome stuff. It's fun when it gets to be your particular army or favorite getting a new release. These days, it also seems more and more likely that it will actually happen in a reasonable time frame.

Now, would I complain if alluva sudden Berzerkers were the new cheese, the queso nuevo, if you will? Naw. I'd rub it in my friends' faces and revel in their tears. Now Zoidberg is the cheesy one!



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Last edited by venomlust; 02-27-14 at 03:37 PM.
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post #27 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 03:41 PM
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Now Zoidberg is the cheesy one!
Whats Karandras got to do with anything?
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post #28 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 03:42 PM
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Whats Karandras got to do with anything?
Haha, I had to look him up. Never knew he had that claw.


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post #29 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 04:07 PM
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Has it occurred to anyone that if you want Berzerkers on Juggernaughts or Plague Marines on Palanquins or units of Aspiring Sorcerors on Discs, you can do that? GW has always said "make your own rules". In 6th edition, that message hasn't changed but is being pushed harder (well, they might have added "because we sure as hell can't" to the end). Sure, if you want to go to a tournament they won't let you, but not that many people go to tournaments. Any half-reasonable group of friends should let you run these things, because hey, it's cool, and this is a game of toy soldiers. It's not like you wish something was added to Team Fortress 2 or Space Marine - you don't have to have technical know-how to script something into the game. 40k is very permissive in that you can just splice two statlines together, make some pretty models and plonk them on the table.

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post #30 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-27-14, 04:22 PM
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Has it occurred to anyone that if you want Berzerkers on Juggernaughts or Plague Marines on Palanquins or units of Aspiring Sorcerors on Discs, you can do that? GW has always said "make your own rules". In 6th edition, that message hasn't changed but is being pushed harder (well, they might have added "because we sure as hell can't" to the end). Sure, if you want to go to a tournament they won't let you, but not that many people go to tournaments. Any half-reasonable group of friends should let you run these things, because hey, it's cool, and this is a game of toy soldiers. It's not like you wish something was added to Team Fortress 2 or Space Marine - you don't have to have technical know-how to script something into the game. 40k is very permissive in that you can just splice two statlines together, make some pretty models and plonk them on the table.
Sure, it has occurred to us. Haven't done it yet, though. It's definitely the best solution possible short of GW actually releasing a quality sculpt with real rules.

The problem is that I don't see my local players being cool with homebrew anything. I could be wrong, because I've never broached the subject, but I can already hear their reactions in my head. They already complain about units that are blatantly not overpowered (never once complaining about my 2 Heldrakes, oddly enough). I wouldn't call this "real" complaining so much as being butthurt about their favorite hero/unit/whatever getting killed by my x/y/z. I've won maybe 20% of the total games I've played, so it's sort of funny when they whine. Anyway...

One could choose to insult them or point out how lame their reactions are, I suppose, but they can't argue with something "official" that they can see for themselves in a book. Now that our group has migrated away from the GW store to a local gaming club/store, I may have a better shot at getting some homebrew stuff being acceptable.

*edit*

Here, I gave it a shot. https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...01#post1595201


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Last edited by venomlust; 02-27-14 at 04:51 PM.
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