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post #31 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 08:25 AM
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Some named characters have special places reserved for them in the bowels of hell.

Baharroth is still paying for being insane in third ed - he's not been good since. That was when he had about 7 attacks on the charge and for every hit he could roll another.
Baharroth charges - I've got 34 hits on your terminators with a power sword... He also had a 2+ re-rollable so nothing short or 3 lascannons could stop him. Basic arms fire wouldn' touch him.

Using the Black legion dex, it's now possible to take a nastier character than any bar abaddon in the codex.
Lord, MoS, BL demon weapon (puts him at I7) and then eternal warrior (cos the BL dex lets you take more than one artefact, like the eldar codex) and a powerfist for lols (and cos thats what he's armed with).
My NL lord is trying to make a name for himself at the moment. So far, he's killed 6 gargoyles. But I'm enjoying him more than the named characters.
I also hate 'ol' one punch' Mephiston - I've found him that much of a pain over the years, I've resorted to just taking Abaddon or one of the cc phoenix lords, cos that tones him down. If he charges, he dies. If I don't take one, he kills all my characters that don't have eternal warrior in one hit before they ever get to swing. Especially when my csm's are determined to throw themselves into harms way with challenges.
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post #32 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
technically, if you put it this way, almost all special characters are just beefed up normal commanders with special rules.
Sure there are some exceptions such as Avatar and Daemon Prince.
But arent all Space Marines are the same? Some are just more excellent and become commanders/captains and if they continue they become leaders of the chapter.
Yes I agree Belial is a bit bland, lacks in fluff, doesnt have much taste to him and bit more expensive than he should be.
No. Coteaz gives re-rolls to Seize, a tank for the front of the unit, charge defense through Sanctuary, a Mastery 2 Divination psyker if you prefer, and a decent shooting attack. None of his abilities can be gained through a normal Inquisitor. Then his main ability, Lord of Formosa, makes Henchmen Troops. This is an extension of a normal Inquisitor, who still lets you take Henchmen, but not as well as Coteaz. Mephiston plays like no other character in the Codex. Draigo makes Paladins Troops, and his statline is far beefier than a regular Grand Master while bringing the only Storm Shield the Grey Knights own and a special sword that helps him punch Psykers and Daemons even harder. Fateweaver brings something unique that essentially opens up a whole new build. Belial gives you Deathwing as Troops (and he's not even the only character who can do that), and... well, that's about it. He has nothing special about him to seperate him from a normal dude.

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Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Lets dissect him.
Belial comes with TDA, AP3 fleshbane sword and can be switched to TH/SS or 2 Lightning Claws for free, also a free Teleport Homer.
7 Special rules out of them 3 rules are unique to him;
  1. Tactical Precision (No Scatter for DS),
  2. Grand Master of Deathwing (Deathwing Terminators are troops),
  3. Marked for Retribution(precision shots on 5+), and also has The Hunt as a Warlord Trait.
Total 190 PTs
Teleport Homer may as well not even be there for all the times it's used. If it could be used on arrival, then maybe, but as it is, no way. Tactical Precision is nice. Deathwing as Troops is cool, but Azrael does it as well, usually better (in mono-Dark Angels, Belial. Most allies will want Azrael). Marked for Retribution, again - usually doesn't bring a gun, and if he does it's a pretty irrelevant one. Precision Shots are something all characters do, even at the squad level, Belial just does it a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Now a DA Company Master in Terminator Armor with SB/PS costs 130 points. Cant have Lightning Claws, or TH/SS, but can take Special Issue Wargear and Chapter Relics which compensates for that. Has an identical stat line. With Relic of Unforgiven and Mace of Redemption he costs 175 points and the mace is much better than the Sword of Silence Belial comes with.
Agreed. Honestly, I forgot the weird restriction on the Master not being able to bring Hammer/Shield, but I think you can bring Mace/Displacer for still less than Belial and be strictly better in combat. However, Belial's cost is mostly in his FOC swap, because as a dude he's pretty bad, as is the Company Master (linear warriors, quadratic wizards - buffs are better than punches. If the Company Master still had Rites of Battle, I'd be all over it, but as it stands? Nah)

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Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Now that leaves me questioning how would you actually make him unique and useful?
Give him some Special Rules that are actually special, and cut his cost a bit.

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Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
In DA book the most unique HQ would be Azrael due to assortment of Special rules and Wargear, however he is expensive and I never actually found him useful.
I think Azrael's pretty good - not massively expensive, unique bonuses from the Lion Helm and Rites of Battle, FOC swaps, and some fancy wargear (not really new, but kind of fun). He's reasonable if you're pushing a 40-man Guard squad into midfield, but in a mono-Dark Angel list you'll usually end up wasting the Helm (which you really need to be using).

Sammael and Ezekiel are nice as well - Sammael's particularly nice, being pretty unique as a character. AP2 Power Sword, Jetbike, Eternal Warrior, good shooting capability (rare for any character, let alone a Space Marine character), and some really good buffs to the squad he joins (Scout and Skilled Rider are awesome). Ezekiel's Book of Salvation gives him a pass too, but Asmodai and Belial are pretty lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DkMiBuch View Post
So what are you saying? That you shouldn't view Belial as a person, but as a normal commander with termi armour?
I don't care what his special combat skills are, I just fail to see the reasoning behind having this guy being the only way of playing Death Wing.
Yes, and because it makes sense that the leader of the Deathwing is a leader in Terminator Armour.

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I don't hate special characters, not at all. I just hate the fact, that they are the only way of using henchmen, purifiers and so on, as troops.
If they weren't, they wouldn't really be special at all, would they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DkMiBuch View Post
They are unique characters, meaning that only one exists in the universe. However when playing a tournament, you are likely to have a Huron vs Huron showdown, because people depend on him to infiltrate their troops.
I see your point, but again - Huron's not the only Chaos Lord in the galaxy, and I'm sure there are others who are Lorgar-like latent psykers (hence the statline and Hamadrya), or bionically rebuilt in the same way (Iron Hands successor traitors, Iron Warrior splinter faction). Huron's rules fit Huron, but they're not exclusive.

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Am I understanding this correctly, that you are defending the notion of using "counts as" characters? I totally agree that the rules shouldn't work for just one Inquisitor in the entire galaxy, but sadly those are the rules.
Yeah - Games Workshop has done the same in every Codex since 3rd edition.

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Originally Posted by DkMiBuch View Post
So I guess that in principle, I'd wish more people would just model their own Chapter Master in terminator armour, and having him use the rules of Belial, just to rid us of the ridiculousness that is opposing armies fielding the same guy, of which only one exists.
Well being as there isn't a model for Belial with Hammer/Shield, 100% of them are converted or kitbashed. Other times, yeah, not good for the immersion when both players use the same model, but you get that all the time when you get two people using the same army and fighting each other. I had a 3-game event where I fought two other Dark Angels players, which doesn't make any sense in the fluff at all. Game =/= Fluff.

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post #33 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
I see your point, but again - Huron's not the only Chaos Lord in the galaxy, and I'm sure there are others who are Lorgar-like latent psykers (hence the statline and Hamadrya), or bionically rebuilt in the same way (Iron Hands successor traitors, Iron Warrior splinter faction). Huron's rules fit Huron, but they're not exclusive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Well being as there isn't a model for Belial with Hammer/Shield, 100% of them are converted or kitbashed. Other times, yeah, not good for the immersion when both players use the same model, but you get that all the time when you get two people using the same army and fighting each other. I had a 3-game event where I fought two other Dark Angels players, which doesn't make any sense in the fluff at all. Game =/= Fluff.
It would seem that I agree with you then. Must have misinterpreted your original post! I like to keep things as "realistic" as possible during games, which is the only reason I sometimes have a problem with special characters. Using "counts as" definitely helps this.

And yes, I realize that talking about realism in a battle of 40k, seems rather odd. You all know what I mean
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post #34 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 02:28 PM
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6e special characters aren't the absolute bonkers they used to be a long time ago, when they required your opponent's permission. However, I don't personally use them. Ever.

It's just a fluff constraint of mine, they're named, specific, special characters, they're not mine, they're not part of my army and they don't really have a reason to be there. Why would Saint Celestine hang around my order? What's Uriah Jacobus doing in my turf? They have no place there, it's a completely different order roaming the galaxy hunting heretics and traitors.

What I hate is when special characters are either so damn good or so many they make all other options irrelevant. Saint Celestine got nerfed to hell and back, but she's still miles above any canoness I can ever build, and so is Uriah Jacobus. As a matter of fact, the canoness sucks goat balls and there's nothing I can do about it as it's my only HQ choice in the entire codex.

But I don't give a damn if you hand me the Chaos Marines codex: I have so many options and toys with generic HQs that I don't even need to look at special characters and feel like I'm missing some cheese I will never have and that will cost me every game.

Aside from this, I don't particularly care.

Except for Eldrad. He's a dick.
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post #35 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 10:11 PM
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Except for Eldrad. He's a dick.
Just as planned. ;)

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #36 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 05:14 AM
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As someone who can only actually play extremely rarely, it's hard enough for me to remember what everyone's troops are capable of... Special characters generally kill me out of my own ignorance of who they are and what they do. That's not the opponent's fault, obviously... but I'm also another holdover from days of "opponent's permission required" and I generally don't like them.

When it comes to fielding them myself, they always look underpowered for the points cost, compared to what 15~20 years of them being optional has taught me.
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post #37 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 08:51 PM
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I'm from the 2nd/3rd era as well - you had to ask for permission. Which meant they were out of bounds for most games other than friendly (This is back in the day when Ahriman had a spell that was basically a Lascannon shot, and he never failed psychic tests, and had a chance to cast it twice).

I'm used to not using characters other than for fluff reasons, as well. I run Asurman in my entirely Dire Avenger or Vehicle Eldar army, for example.
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post #38 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 09:12 PM
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I've never had a bad experience with a Special Character - Mephiston's fucked my opponents up pretty well a couple of times, but I don't know the last time I fought a really nasty Special Character. The Swarmlord, probably, but it's definitely a close-run thing as to whether he's better than a Flyrant. I enjoy fighting them as they usually bring an interesting army with them, but the ones who don't do anything unique are pretty much worse versions of generic characters.

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post #39 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-17-14, 11:44 PM
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I actually like the way special characters are now I started in 2nd when they could easily smash through anything thrown at them and often faced them across the battlefield although I didn't use them myself.
The only characters I dislike facing are the ones that almost assure stealing the initiative like asdrubel vect the dark eldar as there is no counter to this and the ability to set up after your opponent with a 50% chance of having all your weapons in the right place to kill the stuff it's designed to kill just seems cheap.
It's only really since 5th that I've started using special characters and it brings some really cinematic games I recently played a game with my son where the only model left was my Ironhand straken. And I can't remember the last list I wrote that didn't include Pask in a punisher for anti air or horde removal.

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post #40 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-18-14, 01:26 AM
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I was really excited to have a themed army based on Catachan characters. Straken was in charge, Nork watched his back, Harker cleans house and takes objectives and Marbo blows shit up. So far they have done nothing other than Straken killing a couple of dreadnaughts. Straken doesn't do a thing but give orders, Nork is way to expensive, Harker becomes a bullet magnet (usually getting my opponent first blood, even when I give them forward sentries), and Marbo loves to either blow himself up or throw it off the board. Maybe I don't play them right, maybe I suck at rolling, maybe both but I'm now moving away from SC and praying that the new codex will give Straken the abilitiy to make ALL of his units Catachan Devils like he could in the Catachan Codex.

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