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post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Sadly i have not had a chance to face those, but i found Belial with sword to be quite amazing melee character. Midnight since you also play DA how do you place him against those characters?
DWA Belial with group of knights at right position can turn the tide of the game or completely end it in my favour. With good dice rolling you can slaughter everything in your path.
He's completely terrible without the Hammer/Shield, and 'blah' with it. 3 attacks at AP3, even with Fleshbane, just isn't doing enough damage to bother anybody in truth, and he's pretty easy to splat with a Power Fist or Monstrous Creatre. Sometimes he does cool stuff, but at the end of the day he's a 190pt Company Master with Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (thankfully, his Master of the Deathwing and Tactical Precision rules mean he's only about 30/40pts overpriced, rather than being unusable). Knights, on the other hand, are amazing, so bring them and paste face all day.

No, amazing combat characters are actually fairly rare - without accounting for a way to get into combat or their other abilities (because some of these characters are amazing in melee, but can't actually get to the fight without being shot to shit in the process), I'd have to give the first place golden trophy to Skarbrand, hands down. Then most other super-characters from their respective books (Ghazghkull, the Swarmlord, Abaddon, Draigo, Mephiston) are pretty combat-competent too, but most stuff is pretty reasonable to deal with in melee, especially since you can usually gun them down before they ever get there.

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post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 08:58 PM
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I'm part of the gamer generation which dislikes special characters. Waaaaaaay back in 2nd ed they were ridiculously overpowered and rightly required the opponent's consent. I still remember those days vividly.

In addition I was always bothered by the armies which required a player to bring a personality to the field to play their army according to a particular army style. Even when "counting-as" it still bugs me that players are required to purchase HQs that way. Personalities should never be required to play a style within the army. In the current system "overpoweredness" doesn't really enter into it for me.

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post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 09:27 PM
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It's not that I have anything against named characters per se, but I despise the fact that you have to field them, if you want to play a certain way.
Take DA for example, like Stormxlr mentioned. You HAVE to bring Belial or whatever his name is, in order to play Death Wing. Why not just have some sort of upgrade for your commander to unlock them as troops?

It just seems so stupid that a Grey Knights army with Coteaz has a fair chance of facing off against another Grey Knights army using Coteaz.

I'm all for special characters for their battle skills, psychic powers e.g. But I truly hate it when they give your army bonuses, which you couldn't otherwise achieve.
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post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 09:38 PM
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I like special characters as I find they add flavour to a list. I do often find that you can build a better option though
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post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, that makes sense. I can totally get behind being frustrated by needing a specific HQ. Huron comes to mind, for Infiltrate.

I guess it's cool that there's some element of randomness to Warlord traits and things like that, but I think I'm compelled to agree with the notion that there shouldn't be mandatory HQ to play a certain style. Not a reason to hate on another player, but as they say, the game.


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post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DkMiBuch View Post
It's not that I have anything against named characters per se, but I despise the fact that you have to field them, if you want to play a certain way.
Take DA for example, like Stormxlr mentioned. You HAVE to bring Belial or whatever his name is, in order to play Death Wing. Why not just have some sort of upgrade for your commander to unlock them as troops?
Because a Company Master with Terminator Armour and the upgrade to make Deathwing Troops is Belial. He has exactly nothing special about him. He IS a basic Commander with the three optional weapon loadouts and an extra special rule.

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It just seems so stupid that a Grey Knights army with Coteaz has a fair chance of facing off against another Grey Knights army using Coteaz.
Granted, but there are a lot of Inquisitors out there with highly extensive rings of informants and henchmen. Coteaz' rules don't just work for one Inquisitor in the entire history of the galaxy.

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I'm all for special characters for their battle skills, psychic powers e.g. But I truly hate it when they give your army bonuses, which you couldn't otherwise achieve.
I think they're the best kind, otherwise they're not fulfilling the 'special' part of 'special character'. They'd just be generic HQ dudes with less flexibility (look at 8 out of the 9 Special Characters in the Farsight supplement, and tell me which ones you can honestly name from memory and would use outside of O'Vesa, who's only special because he lets you squash a Riptide into HQ).

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post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 10:44 PM
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One of my favorite characters to use is kanadres from the eldar codex. If he only had a invulable save he would be well away. The one guy i hate fighting but also using is Commissar yarrick he is such a pain but so funny to see get back up everytime

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post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 10:47 PM
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I got started in this hobby when named characters were very much a "Hey, this is a cool model, and there are rules for it if you absolutely *must* use it, but mostly, they're just for display." The era of requiring your opponent's permission, stuff like that. And that still resonates with me to a certain degree.

I very rarely play with named characters, but it's more out of habit than anything else. I don't find them that interesting-- they feel like a concession to game design more than something that creates a stronger narrative (or, "forges a better narrative?") for the game. In recent years, it's felt like the presence of a named character makes a player's army less unique, and in some cases makes it outright identical to several other players'.

Do I dislike seeing them across the table from me? Not really. It doesn't bother me one way or another in gameplay terms. I just find them boring. I tend to beat up armies that lean heavily on named characters much more readily than an original build. Named characters often dictate strategies, and when you know what your opponent is going to do (because their tactics are basically pre-written by the presence of a named character) you can exploit it.

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post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:10 PM
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@MidnightSun
technically, if you put it this way, almost all special characters are just beefed up normal commanders with special rules.
Sure there are some exceptions such as Avatar and Daemon Prince.
But arent all Space Marines are the same? Some are just more excellent and become commanders/captains and if they continue they become leaders of the chapter.
Yes I agree Belial is a bit bland, lacks in fluff, doesnt have much taste to him and bit more expensive than he should be.

Lets dissect him.
Belial comes with TDA, AP3 fleshbane sword and can be switched to TH/SS or 2 Lightning Claws for free, also a free Teleport Homer.
7 Special rules out of them 3 rules are unique to him;
  1. Tactical Precision (No Scatter for DS),
  2. Grand Master of Deathwing (Deathwing Terminators are troops),
  3. Marked for Retribution(precision shots on 5+), and also has The Hunt as a Warlord Trait.
Total 190 PTs

Now a DA Company Master in Terminator Armor with SB/PS costs 130 points. Cant have Lightning Claws, or TH/SS, but can take Special Issue Wargear and Chapter Relics which compensates for that. Has an identical stat line. With Relic of Unforgiven and Mace of Redemption he costs 175 points and the mace is much better than the Sword of Silence Belial comes with.

The only thing that makes him special are the 3 rules. Marked for Retribution is useless since most ppl run him with TH/SS and he is not a shoty character.

Now that leaves me questioning how would you actually make him unique and useful?

In DA book the most unique HQ would be Azrael due to assortment of Special rules and Wargear, however he is expensive and I never actually found him useful.
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post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 12:09 AM
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too be fair, perhaps the best CC special character is Kharn, and it did indeed run roughshod over an equally CC oriented unit...so I can see how it can be seen as "over powered" and at the same time I can see a lascannon eliminate him from the game in one shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
Do I dislike seeing them across the table from me? Not really. It doesn't bother me one way or another in gameplay terms. I just find them boring. I tend to beat up armies that lean heavily on named characters much more readily than an original build. Named characters often dictate strategies, and when you know what your opponent is going to do (because their tactics are basically pre-written by the presence of a named character) you can exploit it.
I have a few special characters that I like to run; mostly it is Lucius in my NM leaning CSM warband.

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