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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 03:47 PM
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If a newcomer is getting his shit pushed in by Taudar, then that's not GW's problem. It's the newcomer's problem, to an extent, but mainly the fucking Tau douchebag's fault.

'Hey, a new player who is just starting up! Quick boyz, get the Riptide list, an easy win to boost my ego!'

Fuck you, anybody who brings a tournament list to the FLGS for friendly games against new players. Fuck you riiight in the ass. And if you complain about GW's imbalance as well, then you deserve to be fisted by Geoff Capes.

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 03:58 PM
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Loyalty cards and club points like the super markets, be a good little addict and you can knock some pennies off your next fix of plastic crack!! Become a card carrying member of G.W and subscribe to a mailing list for their propaganda, register 1 preferred army and receive a monthly discount on a single purchase for that army, will never happen, but sweetners do work

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
If a newcomer is getting his shit pushed in by Taudar, then that's not GW's problem. It's the newcomer's problem, to an extent, but mainly the fucking Tau douchebag's fault.

'Hey, a new player who is just starting up! Quick boyz, get the Riptide list, an easy win to boost my ego!'

Fuck you, anybody who brings a tournament list to the FLGS for friendly games against new players. Fuck you riiight in the ass. And if you complain about GW's imbalance as well, then you deserve to be fisted by Geoff Capes.
Aside from the odd fucktard, there's also the issue of people who are not in the internet meta and yet just happen to like armies that are overpowered, or at least clearly superior to others.

Take two people who just started instead of an asshole veteran and a newcomer: if one newbie just happens to like riptides and broadsides and the other just happens to like cultists and warp talons, the first is always going to kick the latter's ass, and the more they play the better they both get... And the sooner they'll realize that the odds are stacked ridiculously against one side.

At that point, it becomes an arms race into buying whatever new kit either party has to buy in order to actually play the damn game. This wouldn't really be an issue if it were a matter of "Oh I wonder if adding this squad or this model will actually help my army work better, let's play a friendly game where I proxy it to see if I like it. Oh gee it's just what I needed! Let's go to the FLGS and get a box".

Instead, it's a matter of "Oh dear, my only answer to anything is Heldrakes, time to hit the store and buy three". If you're competitive, dedicated and want to score big in tournaments you're going to stay in the hobby, but then again if you're like that you already know how to work with eBay and stuff for most of your needs, which doesn't help GW.

What I meant to say is that you don't need to be faced with assholes to be driven away from the hobby, you just have to realize that it's "beer and pretzels" only if you know the game and know what to bring and what to not bring, but if you don't learn it from the get go or the people in your area don't play like that you're most likely out of the loop, immediately. The problem with the game is that it's not newbie-friendly and it's not casual-friendly. Beer and pretzels my ass.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 04:47 PM
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Or they could look at houserules and homebrew, like GW has advocated since forever.

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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 04:51 PM
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
the first is always going to kick the latter's ass, and the more they play the better they both get... And the sooner they'll realize that the odds are stacked ridiculously against one side.

At that point, it becomes an arms race into buying whatever new kit either party has to buy in order to actually play the damn game. This wouldn't really be an issue if it were a matter of "Oh I wonder if adding this squad or this model will actually help my army work better, let's play a friendly game where I proxy it to see if I like it. Oh gee it's just what I needed! Let's go to the FLGS and get a box".

Instead, it's a matter of "Oh dear, my only answer to anything is Heldrakes, time to hit the store and buy three".
This is... well, it's just wrong. The Chaos player will advance in skill at a massively higher rate than the Tau player, and with the amount of Ignores Cover CSM can get for cheap, I'd be surprised if the CSM player learned that a Riptide is severely limited if you kill the Markerlights (which is not THAT hard with the anti-infantry presence Chaos has).

Any decent person would see 'Oh, my friend's not going to play with me anymore because I have this really powerful model, maybe I'll try a different unit'. 9/10 times, the Tau player will change his list to be weaker against the CSM player. If not, well, they're hardly friends, are they?

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 06:31 PM
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I haven't been to every store but I have been to a good few over the years and you can see which stores do well just from the regulars and the staff's attitude.

There are stores where I have a coffee offered before I get fully through the door and others where I have witnessed staff ignore people to the point they give up and leave.

It depends on the store and the staff, my local store (very small) is very welcoming but some of the other stores I have visited have been appalling.

1) Some kind of return to loyalty discounts or vouchers - would be great,

2) In store competitions - where the grand prize doesn't turn out to be a bloody poster would be welcome (GW Lakeside I'm looking firmly at you, having heard from numerous disgruntled shoppers).

Of course lowering prices would be great but it's not likely to happen this life.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Last edited by Bindi Baji; 01-28-14 at 06:35 PM.
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 07:59 PM
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Or they could look at houserules and homebrew, like GW has advocated since forever.
The point is that I find this to be omnipresent throughout the roleplaying games crowd, but I have never, ever witnessed anyone actually use houserules or homebrew in a wargame.

Of course it's anecdotal experience, but I feel there's just not the kind of mentality here, whereas it's pretty much a given in roleplaying. On the other hand, "GW has advocated this since forever" is kind of a moot point because all of their rules have ludicrous price tags and they cut out those that don't have associated models; whatever their reason for doing so, their words and actions are completely opposite and it doesn't take a genius to notice that.

The only thing I like about the BRB of Warhammer Fantasy is that, at the end, there's an example of custom-built unit, the dwarven zeppelin, with lots of weird rules and all that. 40K has absolutely nothing like that, it's easy to say "Oh it's just beer and pretzels make your rules if you want" but if it's nothing but two lines in a 400-odd page book and clashes so blatantly against their business strategy it's not going to work.

Maybe if White Dwarf, now weekly, starts pushing out "experimental house rules" or something to that effect, it could actually give that message.

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This is... well, it's just wrong. The Chaos player will advance in skill at a massively higher rate than the Tau player, and with the amount of Ignores Cover CSM can get for cheap, I'd be surprised if the CSM player learned that a Riptide is severely limited if you kill the Markerlights (which is not THAT hard with the anti-infantry presence Chaos has).

Any decent person would see 'Oh, my friend's not going to play with me anymore because I have this really powerful model, maybe I'll try a different unit'. 9/10 times, the Tau player will change his list to be weaker against the CSM player. If not, well, they're hardly friends, are they?
I'm not saying they're going to turn into assholes right away, I know very few people that would refuse to pull back their lists a bit against newbies or people who bring fluffy stuff, but it's noticeable. Sure, the chaos player will learn to play "better" out of necessity and therefore faster, this means that the glaring internal balance problems in his codex will surface much faster, and as soon as he starts eyeing the other armies and learning them he'll see the trend, and chances are he won't really love it.

What I'm trying to say is that having a ruleset as "balanced" as possible is actually better for a beer and pretzels game, as a newbie will find that he needs to build up his skill to win games rather than not make the mistake of picking a loser army and useless units. The first actually encourages you to play more, dedicate your time to paint better and delve deeper into the hobby, the second actively puts you off: most of us talking here have already devoted a good chunk of money to this game, but why would someone who just started slap a considerable amount of cash into something that he isn't yet invested in and that looks so broken with just a little experience?

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Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
1) Some kind of return to loyalty discounts or vouchers - would be great,

2) In store competitions - where the grand prize doesn't turn out to be a bloody poster would be welcome (GW Lakeside I'm looking firmly at you, having heard from numerous disgruntled shoppers).
My store does both.

But it's not a GW store.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 08:05 PM
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@Bindi Baji - I agree vouchers or points would be nice. But I think the main thing keeping me in my current armies is the book prices- 30 for a codex that I'm not even sure I *like* yet is steep. And for a newbie who will most likely bounce around a few armies before being happy (I know I did) that gets VERY expensive. And for the parent, who's gonna pay 30 for a book their kid can't even use without another 100 dropped on it as well? And that's being nice!
And funny you should mention the posters- I won a fluff competition at my local store (blue water) it was by default, nobody else remembered the dead line. But a poster of a rather shitty chaos character was kinda poo, I don't blame them for not bothering. It wouldn't hurt for you to win a box of tactical marines or a blister or a 10 voucher or something!
overall they just don't appeal to newcomers or reward veterans- so who are they targeting?

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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-28-14, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
@Bindi Baji - I agree vouchers or points would be nice. But I think the main thing keeping me in my current armies is the book prices- 30 for a codex that I'm not even sure I *like* yet is steep.
and the rulebook and the expansions and everything else, yes I do agree but I can't see it changing much

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiro the avenger! View Post
And funny you should mention the posters- I won a fluff competition at my local store (blue water) it was by default, nobody else remembered the dead line. But a poster of a rather shitty chaos character was kinda poo, I don't blame them for not bothering. It wouldn't hurt for you to win a box of tactical marines or a blister or a 10 voucher or something
Indeed, I had a conversation with one of the Bristol store managers who wanted to have a big competion a few years back and was told he could give some scenery and 1 vouchers (nope, i'm deadly serious) suffice to say he has never bothered since.

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overall they just don't appeal to newcomers or reward veterans- so who are they targeting?
Both and both fairly badly, it's certainly somewhere that they need new blood to come in and say "well, what the bloody hell are you doing then?"

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
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