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post #21 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Gret79 View Post
We never play with introduced nerfs - If it's in the rule book, it's legal. Double FoC, allies and at some point super heavies. We're all still having fun. A friend has now got a thunderhawk. I know at some point I'm going to get it in the face, but it'll be cool if I can take it out

Completely agree Gret79.
Everybody seems to be wanting an opponent to drop a significant part of their armoury from their legitimate List.

What concession next?
"I don't want you to field Troops, coz, like, they can win the game for you and that's not fair..."

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post #22 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 11:32 AM
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I don't see D-weapons as any worse than re-rollable 2++'s - both can ruin your day on occasion. Except we can both take d-weapons whereas some armies can't pull out re-rollable 2++'s.
And some armies have no Lords of War. And some armies have no 2+ saves. And some armies don't have skyfire. And some armies don't have flyers. And some Lords of War are ridiculous and actively nerf your side (hello Lord of Skulls). I think you're missing the point here.

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Originally Posted by Gret79
So aside from marines, what are the options everyoe else for killing enemy armour on turn one?
You can bubble wrap your superheavies to avoid first turn meltas. It's not that difficult to pull, so don't get too excited about being able to assault a titan in turn one: it's nearly never going to happen.

As for killing enemy armour on turn one... I have exorcists. If I don't get first turn, I automatically lose them on a 2+ and then it's gg bye.

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Originally Posted by Gret79
Thinking about it - D-weapons are blast most of the time. So fliers could be an answer then.
I wish my army had fliers.

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Originally Posted by Gret79
We never play with introduced nerfs - If it's in the rule book, it's legal. Double FoC, allies and at some point super heavies. We're all still having fun. A friend has now got a thunderhawk. I know at some point I'm going to get it in the face, but it'll be cool if I can take it out
I haven't heard anyone complaining about double FoC, ever. Allies were whined about to no end, but as a matter of fact aside from one or two particular combos (Eldar/Tau or Tau/Eldar and pretty much nothing else) it does nearly nothing to make you more competitive, unless your army sucked in the first place, at which point it's begging the question of why you're not switching already.

Super heavies make you play a different game and add yet another level of codex creep. Say to my face that the Eldar Revenant and the Lord of Skulls are equally powerful and valid without laughing, if you can.
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post #23 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 11:47 AM
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I think I need to get the escalation rules so I can field my stompa. Poor old brian has never been used since I built him a couple of years ago. I will spruce him up and make him more battered, then see how he gets on. He only has the D strength close combat weapon so I expect him to last slightly longer than my truck

Waaagghh Brian


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post #24 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 12:04 PM
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@falcoso is planning on bringing a Transcendent C'tan to our first game of testing Escalation, and I'd like to play a game against my two mates with Stompas as they seem to be the perfect Super-Heavy for Escalation (especially since we allow Forge World - a Warlord Big Mek Stompa that's Scoring, as are all Dreads and Kans in 12"? Yes) - they're big and have a lot of guns, but no 'I remove shit' guns or other silliness. Second place would be the Baneblade variants, which are just big tanks. I imagine the C'tan will dominate (depending on it's movement - we've agreed to follow the old rules for Str D, so they's auto-wound Instant Death hits but allow Invulns, so Knights or Hammer/Shield Deathwing might stick around for some time before being overwhelmed), but I'd be pretty happy to play against a non-Str-D superheavy.

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post #25 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 12:44 PM
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And some armies have no Lords of War. And some armies have no 2+ saves. And some armies don't have skyfire. And some armies don't have flyers. And some Lords of War are ridiculous and actively nerf your side (hello Lord of Skulls). I think you're missing the point here.
You can bubble wrap your superheavies to avoid first turn meltas. It's not that difficult to pull, so don't get too excited about being able to assault a titan in turn one: it's nearly never going to happen.
As for killing enemy armour on turn one... I have exorcists. If I don't get first turn, I automatically lose them on a 2+ and then it's gg bye.
I wish my army had fliers.
I haven't heard anyone complaining about double FoC, ever. Allies were whined about to no end, but as a matter of fact aside from one or two particular combos (Eldar/Tau or Tau/Eldar and pretty much nothing else) it does nearly nothing to make you more competitive, unless your army sucked in the first place, at which point it's begging the question of why you're not switching already.
Super heavies make you play a different game and add yet another level of codex creep. Say to my face that the Eldar Revenant and the Lord of Skulls are equally powerful and valid without laughing, if you can.
Which armies have no lords of war?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...lordsofwar.pdf

You're missing my point - just go with it and play to have fun - the game isn't balanced regardless of whether or not you play escalation.
Lots of D-weapons are blast so they scatter - they might miss you on turn one. Or you could put exorcists in different corners of your deployment zone so that unless you've got a silly amount of d-weapon off one LoW (Revenant I'm looking at you) they can't kill it all in one turn. And if you kill his troops, he can't win unless he tables you. D-weapons also have to roll to hurt now, so thats a slight nerf too.
At the end of this - it's still a dice game. Who hasn't ever had that one game where they couldn't roll a 2+ to save their life?
Sisters get LoW fliers according to the above list. They might not be good (I don't know) but you get them.
You've never seen all the complaints about double foc? All the hundreds of lists/tourneys that are 1999+1?
Allies aren't complained about? How many armies have Tau allies? I've seen posts from people complaining every army in the place they play has Tau allies. Especially with the formations you can bring now.

The revenant and the Lord of Skulls aren't equally powerful, same as a guardsman can't beat up a phoenix lord.
But then, show me a LoW choice available for eldar from GW for 95?
If you want something to take out a revenant, bring a super heavy flier. Blast weapons can't kill fliers.

So, for sisters you get these
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamme...DESTROYER.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamme...ER-BOMBER.html

I've no idea if they're good, but they look cool and will probably kill stuff. And isn't that the point of 40k?

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Originally Posted by humakt View Post
I think I need to get the escalation rules so I can field my stompa. Poor old brian has never been used since I built him a couple of years ago. I will spruce him up and make him more battered, then see how he gets on. He only has the D strength close combat weapon so I expect him to last slightly longer than my truck

Waaagghh Brian
Brian looks awesome He's not the end of 40k, he's a very naughty boy

Last edited by Gret79; 01-30-14 at 01:46 PM.
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post #26 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 01:21 PM
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Now that is the thing to have an epic battle against a revenat! Hand to hand combat with a reaver! Dodge this xenos scum!


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Brian looks awesome He's not the end of 40k, he's a very naughty boy
So many replies to this one pertaining to gourds and sandals

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post #27 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
@falcoso is planning on bringing a Transcendent C'tan to our first game of testing Escalation, and I'd like to play a game against my two mates with Stompas as they seem to be the perfect Super-Heavy for Escalation (especially since we allow Forge World - a Warlord Big Mek Stompa that's Scoring, as are all Dreads and Kans in 12"? Yes) - they're big and have a lot of guns, but no 'I remove shit' guns or other silliness. Second place would be the Baneblade variants, which are just big tanks. I imagine the C'tan will dominate (depending on it's movement - we've agreed to follow the old rules for Str D, so they's auto-wound Instant Death hits but allow Invulns, so Knights or Hammer/Shield Deathwing might stick around for some time before being overwhelmed), but I'd be pretty happy to play against a non-Str-D superheavy.
If you're not playing with the current rule set, your not testing the system. The C'tan I've used in the current system is very non-fun. He just D-weapons the heck out of the enemy army. I haven't faced OTHER d-weapons, which should be the answer, but the SH my opponents choose don't use D-weapons, and they are just meat to the superhalitosis of my C'tan.
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post #28 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pssyche View Post
Two Lord of Skulls, eh?

That presents us with one of two possibilities...

One, you are really pushing the Escalation Rules by using Double FOC in order to field two Super Heavies.
Your opponents must love you.

Or Two.
You haven't read the Escalation Rules, yet still feel it's okay to add your ill informed "2 cents".


I wonder which it is...
Hey, throw out unprovoked random insults, great idea! That'll certainly encourage him to post again!

Or you could, you know, ask if he's sure he's allowed to field two of them.

On topic, D-Weapons are broken because they actively discourage you from taking units with a high Points Per Model ratio, and therefore armies that rely on them (Grey Knights, Chaos, Marines etc) are fucked in the ass with no answer apart from to take their own D-Weapons and hope they go first. Which is a stupid and skill-less way to play. Not to mention boring. Idiotic addition to the game that never should have existed in the first place.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #29 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 03:08 PM
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If you're not playing with the current rule set, your not testing the system. The C'tan I've used in the current system is very non-fun. He just D-weapons the heck out of the enemy army. I haven't faced OTHER d-weapons, which should be the answer, but the SH my opponents choose don't use D-weapons, and they are just meat to the superhalitosis of my C'tan.
I don't think you have to test the system with regard to Escalation and Apocalypse as they stand; they're obviously bad. So, we're toning them down a bit, and seeing if that makes them unplayably awful. If not, we may consider making them ignore Invulnerables and instakill vehicles.

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post #30 of 84 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 03:19 PM
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The issue is that its supposed to be that things are balanced in points costs, so changing effect of D weapons should result in lower costs, as you've turned them into slightly stronger AP:1 weapons.
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