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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-26-14, 10:58 PM
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Everyone needs to validate their choices in life, by taking a stance opposed to the choice they discarded. Whether it's vocal or just internal, everyone has the opinion that anything they have rejected is necessarily inferior to the alternative they chose instead.

For example, someone who has decided not to drink alcohol for whatever reason will often look down (even in a small way) on people who choose to drink and get drunk - they will think they are "wasting money" or "damaging themselves" or "not really having fun" or whatever. This is only natural and human, and generally doesn't harm anyone, because it's just a personal opinion.

The problem arises when you attempt to either enforce this opinion on someone who doesn't share it (example above, telling other people not to drink and throwing a hissy fit when they do) or you start proselytizing at other people about how your choice is better than their choice, which seems to be the case in Straken's club.

To combat it, then I think you need to conduct a small breaching exercise - a way of breaking social norms in order to get across a sharp message.

Normally, when the situation you mention occurs, what do you do? I would imagine (since I assume you're a normal decent person) that you perhaps smile, nod, do your best to move the conversation onto other topics, refuse to engage, don't make eye contact or provocative statements, try to ignore them etc. This isn't working for you, since the problem seems to be getting worse and worse.

My suggestion would be to try something different. The next time someone goes off on one about 40k or GW, then move from wherever you are, and whatever you're doing (if you're playing then excuse yourself politely to your opponent) and walk over to the person and place yourself in front of them. Don't get all up in their face, a few steps away is fine. Make eye contact, hold it for the entire conversation, and say loudly, clearly and politely in the most firm manner you can get something along this line:

"Hi, I don't know if you've noticed, but I happen to enjoy playing 40k. When you rant about it like this, I feel that you are criticising me personally, because I have chosen to play this game. I appreciate you do not like the system or company, and that's your choice, but I would ask that you don't keep lashing on at it while I'm here. After all, if I bitched about how shit [their system] is every time you walked in the room, you'd get pretty sick of it too. Have some respect for other people, and please keep your opinions to yourself."

The key is to be strong, unhesitating and polite. Don't engage in debate, and especially don't argue or lose your temper. Simply say what you want to say and then walk back to your table and continue what you were doing - absolutely don't say this just before leaving the store (which will be seen unconsciously as weak). I'd say you've got something like an 90% chance of them apologising and stopping from doing it (for the next day or so at least) and a 10% chance of them raging at you, in which case you calmly look to the manager and say something like "I don't feel this person is able to respect the other people in this store", turn your back and walk away. Let them deal with it. In our society there is almost no-one at all who will stand in front of you, look you in the eye, and tell you to shut up - especially relative strangers. About the only people I can think of are the police and maybe teachers. By doing the same, you're taking the same mental space as those authority figures in their head, and so it's very likely that the conditioning we have (to do what we're told by authority) will be enough to get them to do what you tell them and shut the fuck up, even though you have no such authority in objective reality.

If that doesn't work (for whatever reason) then have a quiet word with the manager. Point out that you are being put off from attending (and mention anyone else you can think of who might be put off too - don't be afraid to speak out for every single other 40k player, they probably agree with you) and therefore spending less time in his store, less time playing his games, and spending less money. Odds are good that he'll stamp on it.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.

Last edited by Sethis; 01-26-14 at 11:05 PM.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis;1534601

"Hi, I don't know if you've noticed, but I happen to enjoy playing 40k. When you rant about it like this, I feel that you are criticising me personally, because I have chosen to play this game. I appreciate you do not like the system or company, and that's your choice, but I would ask that you don't keep lashing on at it while I'm here. After all, if I bitched about how shit [their system
is every time you walked in the room, you'd get pretty sick of it too. Have some respect for other people, and please keep your opinions to yourself."
oh thanks for the laugh in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..

The key is to be strong, unhesitating and polite. Don't engage in debate, and especially don't argue or lose your temper. Simply say what you want to say and then walk back to your table and continue what you were doing - absolutely don't say this just before leaving the store (which will be seen unconsciously as weak)very true). I'd say you've got something like an 90% chance of them apologising and stopping from doing it doubt this very very much but hey give it a go(

If that doesn't work (for whatever reason) then have a quiet word with the manager. Point out that you are being put off from attending (and mention anyone else you can think of who might be put off too - don't be afraid to speak out for every single other 40k player, they probably agree with you) and therefore spending less time in his store, less time playing his games, and spending less money. Odds are good that he'll stamp on it.
this should be the first and only option if you dont want a confrontation..im sure as i said earlier most small business cant afford to lose a customer to some idiot..it should be the managers responsibility to say "hey you guys are annoying customers either shut it or go
it is time the minority stopped ruling the majority...of my soap box now ahahah
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 07:02 AM
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oh thanks for the laugh in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..
Have you tried this before? I've had it work more than it failed. It's also a completely and utterly different situation to bullying - which is a person or group of people picking on another person and victimising them, which fulfills their predatory and pack instinct by targeting a weaker individual, and the best way to deal with it is in fact to kick them in the balls as hard as you can when they don't expect it and can't retaliate.

What Straken describes isn't bullying, it's people spouting off their own opinions without enough empathy to understand how irritating everyone else finds it. They don't expect anyone to tell them directly to stop, because in their mind then they're just pointing out the incredibly obvious fact that 40k is crap, GW is crap, and no-one in their right mind would play the game. They don't have a confrontational mindset in place because they aren't being challenged, which means you have a pretty good chance of successfully impacting their behaviour by challenging it.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 07:46 AM
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Cognitive dissonance - nuff said

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Everyone needs to validate their choices in life, by taking a stance opposed to the choice they discarded. Whether it's vocal or just internal, everyone has the opinion that anything they have rejected is necessarily inferior to the alternative they chose instead.


Yes.

My favorites are the insults to intelligence. 40k is dumbed down, but WFB takes real skill. WoW got dumbed down and doesn't take any skill, etc. etc.. Just shuuut the fuuuck up. Gamers must have the most collectively sore butthole compared to any other group I know. If your "superior" intelligence isn't enough to guarantee a win against the morons that are beating you, clearly there is something wrong with the game, right? *eye roll*

Everyone gets frustrated and whines. It's human. I do it more often than I'd like and I consider it a personal character flaw, but I try to keep it in check. Very few of us are quantifiably superior to the others, I'm afraid. Get over that shit. If you don't enjoy something, it doesn't have to be a part of your life. Things will never be the way you want them to be just because you want them that way. Wallowing in your juvenile misery will never improve the situation. Move on to something that conforms to your standards and brings you enjoyment. If that isn't possible, I truly feel pity for you.


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Last edited by venomlust; 01-27-14 at 06:06 PM.
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 06:15 PM
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Just say: "Yeah, okay, we get it. You don't like 40K. Is there a point to this rant? Because we just want to play a game and won't force you to participate."

The tabletop gaming scene is full of passive-aggressive neckbeards who have no ability to be alpha males in the rest of life, so they inhabit that sphere where they think they do have it. Don't let them get to you.

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oh thanks for the laugh in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..
Most people have no capacity for confrontation. Honestly, you'd be surprised what a public shaming will do to shut most people up.

But if what I suggested above doesn't work, I agree that speaking to the manager about it is probably a good idea.

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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 07:54 PM
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I think Sethis had this right on. And honestly you can probably even agree with the guy on some of the points, and still making the distinction that regardless of his views on 40k you enjoy playing it and he is being rude.

I find I can often undermine somebody else's argument by partially agreeing with them. They don't expect it, and suddenly your position is ambiguous . . . and you might be an ally. Acknowledging his position and feelings validates his feelings while you disagree with his behavior. That serves to separate this guys feelings/opinions from his behavior, which is the real problem.

Then you offer an opportunity for him to continue to have your positive opinions.

Training people and changing their behaviour is mostly an act of positive reinforcement. People (and animals) respond much more strongly to positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement.

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Could someone please call the police on this guy? I can hear the English Language screaming in pain. This has to be illegal somewhere.

Last edited by Kreuger; 01-27-14 at 07:57 PM.
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 08:05 PM
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Well said Kreuger, have a chocolate...

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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Have you tried this before? I've had it work more than it failed. It's also a completely and utterly different situation to bullying - which is a person or group of people picking on another person and victimising them, which fulfills their predatory and pack instinct by targeting a weaker individual, and the best way to deal with it is in fact to kick them in the balls as hard as you can when they don't expect it and can't retaliate.

What Straken describes isn't bullying, it's people spouting off their own opinions without enough empathy to understand how irritating everyone else finds it. They don't expect anyone to tell them directly to stop, because in their mind then they're just pointing out the incredibly obvious fact that 40k is crap, GW is crap, and no-one in their right mind would play the game. They don't have a confrontational mindset in place because they aren't being challenged, which means you have a pretty good chance of successfully impacting their behaviour by challenging it.
i was was not saying it was bullying i was comparing your choice of response to them,,was similar to ignoring a bully both ineffective..but as i said if it works go for it..

also i stated in my original post that i am a very aggressive person. so to answer your question have i ever tried it..i have been a bouncer for many years..so id say yeah ive had to deal with dickheads of al types..and talking usually doesn't work..yes i know different situations..but where i come from if your going to ask someone to,l be quiet or, shut up or even challenge there perception that is confrontation...

i also stated that i am an owner of a games shop..and when you become a member and sign up there a small friendship agreement..and one of the rule states " to argue like gentlemen" which means to present you case in a clear concise manner..with FACT..if you cant..keep your opinion to your self..and every body likes that..so in our shop we almost never have this situation..i say almost due to i have 1 guy who gets on every bodies nerve..but he doesn't come often.

so again this should be dealt with by the manager
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Veteran Sergeant View Post
Just say:
Most people have no capacity for confrontation. Honestly, you'd be surprised what a public shaming will do to shut most people up.i completely agree..but if your not prepared to stand up and say something then you have no right to complain do you

But if what I suggested above doesn't work, I agree that speaking to the manager about it is probably a good idea.
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