My gripes about 6th edition - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
General 40k This is the place to talk about everything related to Warhammer 40k.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-21-13, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 211
Default My gripes about 6th edition

I liked 6th edition ever since it came out. I liked 5th better than 4th and I like 6th better than 5th: I keep seeing improvements, even in codex balance (some glaringly and painfully notable exceptions aside, but you can't have it all can you?) and I'm certainly glad as all hell that mech isn't an almighty unstoppable force any longer, with the only counter being more mech and the meta being so bad the only special weapon worth taking is the meltagun, making special weapon options "the melta option", which is mandatory.

Still, to put it kindly, they fucked up on the basics. I'll separate my three main gripes into chapters for the ease of reading. I must also warn you that I'm going to rant quite a bit so if this sort of thing irritates you please forgive me.

I just want to kill that guy

Now, the old Torrent of Fire rules sucked, right? It was practically impossible to kill the exact model with that stupid weapon that could just wail on you all the time and you couldn't do anything about it, right? Fortunately 6th edition added precision shots, and thanks to the focus on characters you're guaranteed to have something capable of precision shots in nearly any unit to help you take out those pesky models that were otherwise untouchable before their screen of goons.

But no, it wasn't enough. They had to introduce taking casualties closest from the shooter. Now, before the screaming about "realism" and "strategy" begin, allow me to state upfront why that's bullshit: first, realism goes out of the window whenever 40K is involved, because it's a wargame and therefore has a layer of abstraction for the sake of necessity even before tackling how ludicrous the setting itself is. Secondly, I'll address the issue of movement-related "strategy" in the next gripe.

While it may seem that this innovation will bring more thought into placement, unit movement and where the shooter chooses to shoot from, it actually has terrible side effects. In 5th edition, you had to distribute wounds amongst the unit hit before saving, and could only assign multiple wounds to a single model after you had ran out of models to assign wounds to; it sounds complicated but was actually quite simple: you split the amount of saves you had to take evenly across the models and then rolled them, first the grunts, then those with special weapons, then the upgraded ones and so on. You split first and then roll: no confusion, no what ifs, no interruptions, simple and clean.

In 6th edition you can't. Aside from the inevitable arguments about whether this or that model is closest and having to resort to nitpicking millimetres, the problem is that the rules tell you to roll saves separately until you hit a character or someone with a special weapon or a different save.

Of course sometimes it doesn't make a difference at all, but these are the same cases in which it didn't back in 5th or 4th or anywhere before either, so it's not an improvement. No, if you have someone with a different save or a different weapon or, god forbid, a character, you have to stop. You have to stop and roll the saves one by one. And if it's a character, you have to roll for Look out sir one save at a time.

Why? Who the hell thought this was a good idea? And don't even start with this "realism" bullshit, do you think it's unrealistic for a shot to fly past someone's head and nail the guy in the back row? Why do I have to stop the game and roll saves one by one? Isn't 40K slow enough, what with separate rolls to hit, to wound, to save, all different according to weapon and model hit and possibly some other crap? And what does this add? The off-chance that if you have superior mobility or ultra-reliable deep striking you can get a model before others?

We already had precision shots and the extra focus on characters, why was any of this necessary? 5th edition wound distribution was fine: if they just added precision shots as they are now, you'd get both the chance to remove those pesky models and to pick which one you absolutely want to die, and you could still fit in the Look out sir rule. Determining where shots come from should only be relevant against vehicles.

Moving 6 times more than everyone else is strategy!

There's a few thing I have noticed people failing or outright refusing to do when 6e came out, and the most noticeable of which was to update their gaming tables.

1d3 terrain pieces for every 2x2 section is something; had I suggested playing with that amount of terrain in 4th or 5th edition most people I know would have refused to play against me because the table was "too crowded". People were giving for granted that sitting their tanks at their edge of the table and shooting straight without moving because they were able to see the entire battlefield was the norm and how the game was supposed to be played.

After some experience I can say that if you add in plenty of terrain, especially the LoS blocking and impassable, suddenly tactics start to actually count for something in this game, which is unprecedented in my experience where list-building won battles before they were fought. The changes to vehicles and shooting also had quite an effect... Or not. Snap shots weren't exactly a revolution but they did add a certain degree of unpredictability, but what with ordnance forcing every other weapon to fire snap shots and blasts and templates being impossible to use with snap shots? Speeding through the battlefield shooting at everything with every weapon was no longer a thing.

Except for fast vehicles and skimmers. The latter more than the former, since terrain density is higher and therefore dozer blades are actually worth their price as you're much more likely to be rolling dangerous terrain than before. Being able to move 12" ignoring terrain and shoot with everything was already enough of an advantage considering the increased terrain density, right? Fuck no, let's add a portable cover save on top of it all because why the heck not? We're already pretty much ignoring terrain to our advantage already, might as well get us the advantage of terrain without actually having terrain around.

Why is this bad? Because it's a huge fuck you to all the "strategy" that's supposed to go with unit placement, terrain disposition and movement abilities: when you can say fuck you to all of the above and do as you please unpunished, you're basically playing a different game. But skimmers still aren't too bad: let's not get into the detail of how their point cost doesn't really represent the weight and importance of all the advantages they have just by virtue of being skimmers and move to the better problem: scoring.

The vast majority of scenarios have objectives. Objectives have to be claimed by a scoring unit, or can be contested by an opposing unit. Vehicles usually don't count for either, so being able to move 36" in a turn ignoring terrain completely unpunished isn't really that bad, right? Also because even if you're a transport you can't embark or disembark anything if you move more than 6", no matter how much of a fast thing you are. So problem solved, right?

No. Why? Jetbikes.

Let's do a simple experiment: take a measuring tape, stick it to 36", now put it in the middle of a standard, empty 6x4 table and spin it around. See that range? That is your movement range, that is how far you can go in one turn.

Now fill the same table with the standard amount of terrain pieces: 1d3 per 2x2 section. Now take a measuring tape, stick it to 6", and put it somewhere in the table where it doesn't touch any terrain piece in any direction. That's how far the vast majority of the units in the game can move in one turn, plus between 1 to 6 extra inches, oh and this assuming you don't touch terrain, because if you do your actual movement is between 1 to 6 inches and between 1 to 6 extra inches, so a potential of 2-12" instead of 7-12". Also see those walls, those bottomless chasms and all that impassable terrain? Have fun going around it instead of straight through.

Why is this bad? Because you win by putting a scoring unit close to an objective, and when you have scoring units that shit in the face of everything you've been trying to do to add tactics and unpredictability to the battlefield and can get anywhere you want when you want them to, you're practically cheating. I've been told that strategy is extremely important in 40K and battles are won and loss on the movement phase more than any other phase, I've been told that moving right is the sign of the true veteran, guess who always told me that? People that play the only army that has troops that move 36" in one turn ignoring all terrain whatsoever.

How about we play a game of chess where all of my pieces move like queens and can jump over other pieces and yours don't? No? You just can't deal with my strategy!

But Moku!, you're going to say, deep striking also does that! What about it, huh?

Deep striking is perfectly fine for two reasons: one, it relies on Reserve mechanics, which have actually been balanced out rather well. Deep striking is potentially very powerful but has drawbacks: you can't decide when a unit will be available, and you can't be sure it will actually go where you want it to go. You can't just keep something in reserve and decide to field it through deep strike exactly in the moment you need it the most, and that's already a very important drawback: add to this that your unit can scatter, and if it scatters where it can't be placed it will suffer an accident that will delay it by one turn at best. See how different the scenario gets with just these two details?

But Moku!, you go again, Drop pods!

Yes, drop pods and similar paraphernalia ignore most of the drawbacks that come from possibly being screwed over unfavourable scatter. Well, they just keep you safe from deep striking incidents and even then only if you don't scatter off the table, but they also ignore plenty of things from the reserve mechanics such as coming in on turn one or allowing you to keep your entire army in reserve.

While both are certainly annoying, they both have drawbacks: for one thing, if you only have half your army on the table and it doesn't do the massacre you expected it to do, it's going to have a hard time holding out until help arrives. For another thing, Interception.

The Interceptor rule allows you to target units that come from reserves, including those that deep strike. While this doesn't assure their destruction in any way, it is a counter of sort. You can do something about people suddenly appearing in your face. But what can you do about people running from wherever in the table in last turn and grabbing all the objectives or invalidating those you have? Nothing. Except for bubble wrapping around objectives, but it's still unfair because your opponent can keep the hell away from everything you have and turbo in last turn, while you're forged to slog your way to wherever you must go, 6" at a time if you don't deep strike or your vehicles were all blown up.

What makes me the most angry is that you can see the rules are there, the setup is there, the risk and benefit ratio is more or less there and the possible counters are there, but they missed one thing that fucks everything up, and guess which armies dominate the tournament scene? Guess what they have in common?

What kind of game do people play?

I first thought this was going to be flyer edition because, like everyone else, the first exposition to 6e flyers I came to deal with was the Heldrake.

Hello, I'm an AV 12 thing you can only possibly ever hit on a 6, I eat your stuff up just because I move and I put a template anywhere around me and fuck up whatever is under there that isn't a terminator, I also have an invulnerable save and can regenerate hull points and ignore the two results that might prevent me from flaming your army to ashes.

You have to admit it's difficult to not get mad at it.

(Un)Fortunately, that's as far as the Chaos codex went in the cheese department, so very few people that I know field heldrakes because, well, they just don't play Chaos marines. Because they suck. I have found both myself and other people stop worrying that much about flyers after the heldrake craze passed because the other options aren't, well, very competitive. Sure, they're annoying, but three twin-linked lascannons are a joke compared to the heldrake, and you actually have a better than awful chance at taking down a vendetta with a quad gun, assuming your army has no other way of getting the Interceptor rule and you're not lucky enough to get that random objective that gives Skyfire to the nearby unit.

It's a good thing that fortifications and allies were introduced. No, seriously, without getting into arguments about GW's update cycle, it is a matter of fact that some armies will get to six on their previous edition's ass for a while before they get the current edition's shiny new toys. Which they might as well not get. Remember the Skyfire and Interceptor options of Chaos marines and Chaos daemons? Yeah. Me neither. Fortunately allies, fortifications and other things can mitigate, or fix, this.

The problem however remains: terrain, cover and movement have been made more important so that the weight of tactical choices concerning them is much heavier than just sitting on your ass at the back of the table and laugh as your units shoot everything they see out of existence, because they can't just see everything any longer, and their heavy tanks aren't as nigh-immortal as they were in 5th, to the point Leman Russes are actually starting to disappear because they're too expensive for what they do despite their AV 14.

Except they still can. Not Leman Russes, but there's unit that can ignore all of the above, including needing LoS to shoot. And I'm not just talking about ordnance barrage (which there is very little of and it's still quite expensive and frail for 6th standards), I'm talking about Taudar as you probably already guessed. Surely this advantage of being able to flat-out ignore all of the rules and innovations that added tactics and, god forbid, thinking to the game are very expensive since they weigh so much in the actual game, right?

Fuck no, these options are cheap as all hell. Want to know what's expensive? A S5 space marine with the Daemon rule that can't shoot. On foot.

I don't get it. When this edition was designed, what did they think was going to happen on the actual tables? How could they put all that weight and importance on battlefield, random elements, random objectives, objective hunt, forging a narrative and whatnot, and then fail to realize they were keeping the option to ignore all of that and priced it way cheaper than the alternatives?

Yes, I am saying the only reason for which Taudar are supreme kings of everything is not because their units are too strong stat-wise or have too powerful weapons (though I personally would give broadsides, riptides and wave serpents a tweak or two), but because they have the ability to play dirty and ignore all of the tactical elements that every other army has to deal with the hard way, and it just happens to be what makes you win.

If, say, you add the clause that "units that turbo-boost cannot claim or contest objectives if the game ends in the player turn they did so", I'm 100% sure that all jetbikes will instantly disappear from every Taudar list. All because they have an incredible advantage which they don't pay for, and it constantly gets overlooked because, well, you're going to focus on the fact they're T4 with a 3+ save and jink, right? And Shurken weapons are annoying with their soft Rending, right? No, that's not why they're broken, it's the free 36" fuck the terrain move on troops when four out of six scenarios from the rulebook win you the game with just that, and you can tie the fifth at worst with the same tactic.

It makes me sad because I don't think you have to go on a crusade against codex creep or GW's favourites (although both exist and are a thing), you just have to make a couple apparently simple changes to a few rules in the basic rulebook and most of the issues will be solved, or at least be brought back into acceptable levels of imbalance.

6e isn't a bad ruleset: I haven't noticed anything about the supposed flyer domination craze the heldrake brought, but there's just these few things that look so stupid at first and yet, after months of occasional playing, they get so in your face they're just impossible to ignore any longer.

And sorry again for the rant.
Mokuren is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-21-13, 02:38 PM
Senior Member
 
lokyar's Avatar
lokyar's Flag is: Netherlands
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 113
Reputation: 1
Default

I agree a lot with you, enjoy your rep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by returnoftheclown View Post
"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
lokyar is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-21-13, 06:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Sethis's Avatar
Sethis's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Alston, Cumbria
Posts: 4,190
Reputation: 58
Default

I think you have some great points, and I agree partially or fully with almost all of it, however I'll add in a couple of things:

- If you've never faced a hex-scythe list, or quad-vendetta army, then you haven't felt the worst pain of Flyers. The sheer uninvolvement of all of your units makes the entire battle not fun.

- Jetbikes would still be taken even if they couldn't turbo onto objectives, albeit they'd be squads of 6 instead of squads of 3. Even without turboing, they're the most survivable unit in the Eldar codex that isn't a Serpent, and they put out good firepower while being able to JSJ. A strong choice for their points, especially with the Dire Avenger and Ranger nerf.

- A Taudar list is reined in massively as soon as you actually do what you suggest, and add in a good quantity of LoS blocking terrain. Getting unimpeded firing arcs on your two Riptides and three Serpents and Broadsides is much more impressive than the same units that can only draw line of sight to one enemy unit each. It forces the shooty units to get closer, and therefore be more vulnerable.

- Regarding wound allocation, I agree that LOS! is a pain in the ass, but you certainly don't need to roll them one at a time except in unusual circumstances (i.e. Draigo tanking). Most often if there's say, 4 guys in front of the Character, you simply roll batches of 4 saves until you reach the Character. Then you decide whether to LOS or take the hits, and roll all the LOS dice at once. Then you continue taking saves. I agree it's more of a pain in the ass than 5th (with the exception of Nob Bikers...) but it wouldn't even make my top 10 list of things that piss me off about 6th Ed.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
Sethis is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-21-13, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
- If you've never faced a hex-scythe list, or quad-vendetta army, then you haven't felt the worst pain of Flyers. The sheer uninvolvement of all of your units makes the entire battle not fun.
I have. It's not fun, and I agree, but it's not fun because it's annoying, it's still less powerful and more "fair" than the problem about units ignoring some of the most important limitations in the rules that change the entirety of gameplay for everyone but them.

Flyers are a problem because it's possible to spam them (not all armies can, but some do) and the only answer to flyers is either fortifications or other flyers. Now, it's not a bad idea to take at least one air support thing in just about every list and an ADL just to be sure and it's usually not much of a point tax, but I think the real problem is the lack of viable and cost-appropriate Skyfire alternatives.

Flakk missiles looked good on paper, when all we had was the 6th edition rulebook and their entry on the weapon tables, the problem is that when they started being an option they turned out to be an additional premium over the cost of a missile launchers, meaning they're more expensive than giving a marine a lascannon all for the benefit of one S7 shot with skyfire. Not that impressive. For the price of four devastators armed with flakk-ready missile launchers you can get an ADL with a Quad gun and have points to spare, that is not a good trade.

If there were more Skyfire options other than a random mysterious objective results it'd be better. I'm disappointed it's still impossible to buy a Skyfire node or something on a fortification, it'd have been a very cheap and effective way of spreading the rule to every codex, thus balancing the game out a bit and making flyers an option again rather than nearly mandatory. It would also help more "fluffy" armies defend better against MC flying circuses but that's not really an issue as big as the other ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
- Jetbikes would still be taken even if they couldn't turbo onto objectives, albeit they'd be squads of 6 instead of squads of 3. Even without turboing, they're the most survivable unit in the Eldar codex that isn't a Serpent, and they put out good firepower while being able to JSJ. A strong choice for their points, especially with the Dire Avenger and Ranger nerf.
I am aware the Eldar codex isn't particularly stellar aside from jetbikes and Wave serpents, the further nerf to banshees saddens me as does the fact that Dire avengers cost as much as a SoB and have worse armour albeit a stronger gun, unless you're shooting at hordes behind cover in which case it's about the same.

I have more experience with roleplaying games than I have with wargames, so let me bring an example from a mostly unrelated field by talking about an RPG by the name of "Exalted". In that game you're a demigod of sorts that goes out to save the world from everything and the kitchen sink while being awesomesauce and stuff. Now, the problem is that there's powers that make you better at stuff, and powers that make you completely immune to a certain amount of hazards and situations. Like, complete immunity, no questions asked.

While that can be awesome and fun, it has the problem that, if brought too far, it simply makes a chunk of potential challenges not viable, as some characters (not all! Which is worse!) will... Not be challenged at all, so you can't throw certain things at them, and this is something that ranges from poisons (okay) to lies and entire plots based around any sort of mystery (what were they thinking?).

Jetbikes are in the same situation: if we give them a price hike due to the fact they ignore what is a very, very important part of the game that kind of changed every tactic and revolutionized the meta from the previous edition, then suddenly they're going to have the Chaos marines syndrome, which is a codex based on having models that come to a 20+ points per model range that die with the exact same ease as models that come for 13 points apiece.

Eldar aren't very survivable, what with their T3 and relatively high cost per model: it feels like playing Dark Eldar with better armour if they don't have Wave serpents. The problem is that Wave serpents are "a little" too good, and jetbikes just shit in the face of the game and all of its assumptions about how a battle is fought.

Actually, we should try a very simple houserule: objectives work a bit like buildings, the first player that gets within 1" of one "claims" it, and it remains claimed as long as there is at least one scoring unit within 3" of it at the end of the player's turn. Objectives are contested only if the scoring units claiming it are locked in close combat. This might actually help give assault some weight back as it's been nerfed quite a bit in 6th, despite assault specialists being always more expensive and worse performing than the shooty specialists throughout every codex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
- A Taudar list is reined in massively as soon as you actually do what you suggest, and add in a good quantity of LoS blocking terrain. Getting unimpeded firing arcs on your two Riptides and three Serpents and Broadsides is much more impressive than the same units that can only draw line of sight to one enemy unit each. It forces the shooty units to get closer, and therefore be more vulnerable.
I think this is a problem of mentality. We're hoping to host a tournament first quarter next year with my club and if I get any say in it, I'm going to get the tables reasonably crowded with a good deal of tall, LoS blocking terrain outside of potential deployment zones.

At worst, it'll be a nice experiment and see if the results come noticeably out of meta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
- Regarding wound allocation, I agree that LOS! is a pain in the ass, but you certainly don't need to roll them one at a time except in unusual circumstances (i.e. Draigo tanking). Most often if there's say, 4 guys in front of the Character, you simply roll batches of 4 saves until you reach the Character. Then you decide whether to LOS or take the hits, and roll all the LOS dice at once. Then you continue taking saves. I agree it's more of a pain in the ass than 5th (with the exception of Nob Bikers...) but it wouldn't even make my top 10 list of things that piss me off about 6th Ed.
It doesn't come up all the time, and I agree, but it still pisses me off because it's more likely than it first seems, which means that it comes up often enough to be a pain in the ass. Mostly, I find it irritating because it's entirely pointless, an unnecessary complication where the intended result, which is that of getting to kill that damn guy grr I hate that damn guy I want him dead could have been introduced just with the Precision hits mechanic. That was plenty already. Why did they need to fuck up wound allocation that bad? It doesn't make any sense, it just makes the game even slower for extremely marginal benefits.
Mokuren is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-23-13, 05:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Lord_Aaron's Avatar
Lord_Aaron's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 108
Reputation: 3
Default

I've been playing since 3rd Edition, and I agree, 6th is the best edition yet. Each edition has been an improvement over the last.

And I think Mokuren has made some very excellent observations and offered some simple and easy solutions to problems within the game.

So in the spirit of ranting and griping, here's mine:

I usually don't play 40K with my friends. I usually play pick-up games at the FLGS with people I've only met once or twice. So in situations like this, I really need a well-balanced set of rules to use. I can't stop and explain why such-and-such rule/unit is unbalanced/broken and why we need to make a house rule to fix it. Especially if my opponent brought a spammy list taking advantage of said broken rule/unit.

Each new edition, I keep hoping that GW will actually fix the problems and make it the game it should be. And while each edition is a step in the right direction, it's always a little short of what it needs to be. While many of us may hate GW for whatever reason, I think all of us respect them. At least, as an neutral third party to arbitrate.

Anyway, I'm at work right now and my time is limited. I think I could have written a better post rather than just some random tangent.
Lord_Aaron is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-24-13, 06:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Da Joka's Avatar
Da Joka's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 807
Reputation: 5
Default

Well, I cannot say that you are wrong. But I will say that I don't mind the new wound allocation too much. My main gripe is that Precision hits can be Looked Out Sir'ed, so it limits it's usefulness against Characters, but is great against those pesky special weapons.

The way missions are right now, Jet Bikes and other fast grab units can just jet on and win the game at the last moment with very little counter play, which is dumb, as it rewards you for being cowardly and not taking a risk.

Last week I was actually talking about this on a Facebook group, when one of the members pointed me in the direction of "Whiskey & 40k" where they are working on making new missions that allow for a lot more actual tactics. Currently they only have one Mission (rules found here: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2013/...or-better.html ) BUUT the design of it allows for a lot more flexibility in Army list, while making the last minute grab a lot less viable. I really hope they get their word out, and hell maybe even get hired by GW to help fix their mission design lol

Peace, Love, and Mass Destruction

Necrons in 6th Edition W: 28 L: 9 D: 5
Orks in 6th Edition W:9 L:9 D:3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
F*** that, Barrel rolling monolith all the way.
Da Joka is offline  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-24-13, 07:42 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Flyers are a problem because it's possible to spam them (not all armies can, but some do) and the only answer to flyers is either fortifications or other flyers. Now, it's not a bad idea to take at least one air support thing in just about every list and an ADL just to be sure and it's usually not much of a point tax, but I think the real problem is the lack of viable and cost-appropriate Skyfire alternatives.
Are Flyers still a problem in your area? Lincolnshire forgot about Flyers a couple of releases back, after it was realised that there are only two armies in the game that can actually pull it off; CSM and Guard. Chaos have the Heldrake, which is sadly the only real hit of the Codex, but what a hit it is (it's commonly known in these parts as The Last Flyer, what with it being the last relevant Flyer release by GW); and Guard, who can bring Vendettae which combine AV12, a decent weapon loadout and transport capacity. Runners up are Space Marines, who can bring a very-tough Flyer but it's both very costly and slightly under-gunned for over 200pts, and Necrons, who can bring a buttload of Flyer transports with some really neat special rules to make them very effective transports but who have the same problem in being really quite inoffensive; 100pts for a single Tesla Destructor that moves like a hippo on roller skates is hardly game-breaking (that's a hair less than a Wave Serpent, which has better offensive output with the Shield alone, as well as higher armour, the ability to make all Pens into Glances, and being a bajillion times easier to maneuvre). Add Tau saturation to the mix and Flyers end up being quite a minor part of 40k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Jetbikes are in the same situation: if we give them a price hike due to the fact they ignore what is a very, very important part of the game that kind of changed every tactic and revolutionized the meta from the previous edition, then suddenly they're going to have the Chaos marines syndrome, which is a codex based on having models that come to a 20+ points per model range that die with the exact same ease as models that come for 13 points apiece.
Not sure what you mean by Chaos Marines syndrome; are you saying that Noise Marines are worse than Chaos Space Marines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Eldar aren't very survivable, what with their T3 and relatively high cost per model: it feels like playing Dark Eldar with better armour if they don't have Wave serpents. The problem is that Wave serpents are "a little" too good, and jetbikes just shit in the face of the game and all of its assumptions about how a battle is fought.
Wave Serpents are highly overrated; they're very, very efficient at killing light armour, but bounce off AV13+ and MEQs alike from what I've seen, and are very vulnerable to, well, being killed.

I think that Eldar should 'shit in the face of the game and all of its assumptions about how a battle is fought.' I think that all Codexes should do that; if nothing ever changes the meta then the game will stagnate. Eldar are still a very nice army, if you move outside of '5 Wave Serpents and a shit tonne of Jetbikes', just like any other army.

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-25-13, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post
The way missions are right now, Jet Bikes and other fast grab units can just jet on and win the game at the last moment with very little counter play, which is dumb, as it rewards you for being cowardly and not taking a risk.
That's the worst part: when your road to victory is to do something that cannot be countered in almost any way it stops being tactics and becomes a matter of "push the button to win".

In the end, everyone will bring the big red button and whomever gets to push it first wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post
Last week I was actually talking about this on a Facebook group, when one of the members pointed me in the direction of "Whiskey & 40k" where they are working on making new missions that allow for a lot more actual tactics. Currently they only have one Mission (rules found here: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2013/...or-better.html ) BUUT the design of it allows for a lot more flexibility in Army list, while making the last minute grab a lot less viable. I really hope they get their word out, and hell maybe even get hired by GW to help fix their mission design lol
I like the idea but I find the wording to be a little complicated. I think it's possible to fix the problem in a much simpler and easier to calculate way, but I do admit I've never actually sat down to write mission scenarios (but I should).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Are Flyers still a problem in your area? Lincolnshire forgot about Flyers a couple of releases back, after it was realised that there are only two armies in the game that can actually pull it off; CSM and Guard. Chaos have the Heldrake, which is sadly the only real hit of the Codex, but what a hit it is (it's commonly known in these parts as The Last Flyer, what with it being the last relevant Flyer release by GW); and Guard, who can bring Vendettae which combine AV12, a decent weapon loadout and transport capacity. Runners up are Space Marines, who can bring a very-tough Flyer but it's both very costly and slightly under-gunned for over 200pts, and Necrons, who can bring a buttload of Flyer transports with some really neat special rules to make them very effective transports but who have the same problem in being really quite inoffensive; 100pts for a single Tesla Destructor that moves like a hippo on roller skates is hardly game-breaking (that's a hair less than a Wave Serpent, which has better offensive output with the Shield alone, as well as higher armour, the ability to make all Pens into Glances, and being a bajillion times easier to maneuvre). Add Tau saturation to the mix and Flyers end up being quite a minor part of 40k.
Flyers aren't a problem in my area. There's been the Heldrake craze but it died with Taudar as everyone started playing them instead. Seeing how neither of the two has any broken flyer options, yeah, not much to say about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Not sure what you mean by Chaos Marines syndrome; are you saying that Noise Marines are worse than Chaos Space Marines?
I'm saying that Chaos Marines have models, such as Possessed, that cost twice as much as a basic Chaos Marine (twice!) while being exactly as easy to kill with small fire. It's not that Possessed have nothing to go for them, but their cost is unjustifiable. There are other examples (hello Berzerkers!) but the gist of it is that the codex has terrible internal balance and some units pay their special abilities way more premium than it's worth.

In the end it doesn't matter how nice or powerful the rules you have are: if you're a space marine that costs twice a space marine and dies as easily as a space marine, you're most likely not worth it. I mean I never saw Warp Talons being played, I'm pretty sure there's a reason behind it, a reason that's most likely that they cost more than Possessed and don't shoot at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
I think that Eldar should 'shit in the face of the game and all of its assumptions about how a battle is fought.' I think that all Codexes should do that; if nothing ever changes the meta then the game will stagnate. Eldar are still a very nice army, if you move outside of '5 Wave Serpents and a shit tonne of Jetbikes', just like any other army.
Theoretically speaking, every army should have its own shtick and special rules and flip the bird to how battles are supposed to play out. The problem is that some are way, way, way more effective than others and it's so painfully obvious which ones. Like I said in my RPG example with Exalted, being able to do special, ordinarily impossible things is cool, but the moment this means you get to skip over a significant part of the game it's not so fun any more.

Especially if, like we said before, we're talking about a wargame where some options are practically "Push the button to win" with practically no way to counter that except to bring your own "I win" button, which escalates the game to the point where your win or loss is based solely and entirely on whether you have The Button or not.

I believe that button shouldn't exist and should depend on actual on-game events than meta and list building, but then again I haven't said anything new since the Rogue Trader era.
Mokuren is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-25-13, 03:16 PM
Rattlehead
 
MidnightSun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Sheoth
Posts: 6,741
Reputation: 83
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
That's the worst part: when your road to victory is to do something that cannot be countered in almost any way it stops being tactics and becomes a matter of "push the button to win".

In the end, everyone will bring the big red button and whomever gets to push it first wins.
I'm not really sure which units in 40k I would class as 'win buttons'; sure, some lists are better than others, some units are obvious choices, but none are really ridiculous in my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
I'm saying that Chaos Marines have models, such as Possessed, that cost twice as much as a basic Chaos Marine (twice!) while being exactly as easy to kill with small fire. It's not that Possessed have nothing to go for them, but their cost is unjustifiable. There are other examples (hello Berzerkers!) but the gist of it is that the codex has terrible internal balance and some units pay their special abilities way more premium than it's worth.

In the end it doesn't matter how nice or powerful the rules you have are: if you're a space marine that costs twice a space marine and dies as easily as a space marine, you're most likely not worth it. I mean I never saw Warp Talons being played, I'm pretty sure there's a reason behind it, a reason that's most likely that they cost more than Possessed and don't shoot at all.
I would argue that the reason that Possessed and Warp Talons are bad is that they're bad at their specialisation; if Warp Talons had Frag/Krak Grenades they'd be a lot more usable, and if Possessed had Grenades and a tad less randomness then they'd be solid too. The problem isn't inherently in their cost; if it was, then you'd never see Purifiers over standard Grey Knights, yet Purifiers are a good unit. It's when you make a unit more expensive and more specialised but make it bad at it's specialised role or make it's role unnecessary then it doesn't matter how much it costs, within reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Theoretically speaking, every army should have its own shtick and special rules and flip the bird to how battles are supposed to play out. The problem is that some are way, way, way more effective than others and it's so painfully obvious which ones. Like I said in my RPG example with Exalted, being able to do special, ordinarily impossible things is cool, but the moment this means you get to skip over a significant part of the game it's not so fun any more.

Especially if, like we said before, we're talking about a wargame where some options are practically "Push the button to win" with practically no way to counter that except to bring your own "I win" button, which escalates the game to the point where your win or loss is based solely and entirely on whether you have The Button or not.

I believe that button shouldn't exist and should depend on actual on-game events than meta and list building, but then again I haven't said anything new since the Rogue Trader era.
I still don't know which 'win buttons' you're talking about; I can table a 4-Wave Serpent list with a Deathwing/Greenwing army without massively exerting myself and I can do it regularly. There are no units in 40k that break the game; there are some that change the game, which is good, but I can't think of one that's truly broken the game. The only armies that have been crippled have been done so by core rule changes (namely Dark Eldar and Tyranids, primarily).

Creator of Utilitarian Ultramarines Memes - join the XIII on Facebook (no XVII allowed).
MidnightSun is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-25-13, 07:42 PM
Senior Member
 
kiro the avenger!'s Avatar
kiro the avenger!'s Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Where you least expect it
Posts: 1,509
Reputation: 3
Default

There are definatly 'win button' units. Not in the sense of you have it, you win
But in the sense that if you have it, you will win unless the opponent has the hard counter.
Heldrakes will beat a standard blood angels army 99.9% of the time. same with a lot of lists, screamer star, escalation. So blood angels have all but disappeared from competivr play, and aren't that fun in friendly play, because a single play brings a drake cos it's cool, that's gg.
Jet bikes just shit on the game, a bit of shit is good, but you still should have win button shit.
There may not be win win buttons, but theirs definatly win buttons and lists that you scarcely shouldn't bother with- nids, blood angels ETC
There's a reason why tournies are Rock Paper Scissors of eldar, tau, chaos and daemons...

........
Through temptation and horror
I have held to my faith
As a drowning man grasps at a rock
Judge me not by my weakness
Remember not my sins of late
kiro the avenger! is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > General 40k

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome