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post #41 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
GW isn't just some money grubbing evil corporation, and prices aren't being set to just bilk you out of all your money.
yes they are

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"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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post #42 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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yes they are
If you truly believe that you're living in a dream world. There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes than you or I will likely ever know that influences the pricing policy, but I can be sure of one thing: it's not done the way it is in an active attempt to screw the customers out of their money. You're ascribing malicious behavior to something that is explainable through much more logical means regarding pricing.

For example, the reason GW doesn't decrease prices instead of freezing them when the yearly price increase comes around? Menu Cost. Basically it costs GW more to change prices (both in terms of actual money, as well as opportunity cost) to lower prices. Not to mention all the FLGS owners who'd be pissed off that they "overpaid" on recent orders and would likely gain a credit of the difference costing GW more money.

When one gets into actual Economics as well as Accounting (courses I've been in the past semester) you see that there is a lot of things that drive prices, and greed, while a common explanation by the unaware public, is rarely, if ever, an actual reason for why companies price things the way they do.

Last edited by Zion; 12-03-13 at 04:48 PM.
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post #43 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 04:55 PM
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Whew, great thread.

My opinions in the OP have already been stated by others but here goes. GW would need to take to much time and investment to retool their game to make it a tournament inclined game. Would I like more balanced rules and additional play testing to make some units better, sure, but a complete re-write of the rules would kill the charm the game has.

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
Honestly I don't care about how much you or anyone else thinks things should cost. I really don't. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that you, I, and every angry neckbeard will ever know. GW isn't just some money grubbing evil corporation, and prices aren't being set to just bilk you out of all your money. Someone has to actually sit down, determine the cost of everything that goes into that product, how long it'll take to pay off the initial investment that went into making that product before it's sold (to include: mold costs, material costs and all those man-hours of labor that are paid in advance) and likely a dozen other things and then sets the price so they still make money when they discount sell it to FLGS and their brick and mortar stores at 60%+ off.

"It should only cost this much!" really is just the cry of someone who doesn't understand the world and thinks it should bend to their whim. Can't afford it? Tough because they can't afford to sell it for less and stay in business. Every company prices things this way. Those yearly price increases that we (usually) see? Caused by the inflation of labor (which GW hires a fair amount of what can be called "skilled" labor to work the production line, which means they pay a fair amount for it too), inflation of materials (both for the models and packaging), cost of replacements they don't charge you for and the increases in shipping costs (yes, it helps offset that "over $50 USD" free shipping they offer). When you look at a price you're looking at the result of someone's work. The result of someone sitting down and saying "if we're going to make 20% off of this item when we sell it to a brick and mortar we need to price it at X". Those prices aren't made to just rip you off, they're made that way because they need to be.
We should try and leave cost of GW products out of this, as it's one of those factors that always seems to derail any good conversation about GW's policies and rules.

Lets just all agree on the idea that we are always willing to pay a lower price for the same product, and the price we pay can never go to low.

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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
yes they are
That, Lokyar, is a very compelling argument. Your inside knowledge of GW's production costs astounds me, and has shown the Internet as a whole how much they are being ripped off by GW.

GW is a publicly traded company, just like Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. Their JOB is to maximize return on investment for their shareholders.

People just complain about GW because they know it's a luxury good, and they don't have to spend that kind of money, but they do anyway.

Now lets just stay away from the cost thing. It's gonna kill this thread and I like reading this one.

Last edited by Wusword77; 12-03-13 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Forgot to add my thoughts on the OP
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post #44 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 06:26 PM
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That, Lokyar, is a very compelling argument. Your inside knowledge of GW's production costs astounds me, and has shown the Internet as a whole how much they are being ripped off by GW.

GW is a publicly traded company, just like Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. Their JOB is to maximize return on investment for their shareholders.

People just complain about GW because they know it's a luxury good, and they don't have to spend that kind of money, but they do anyway.

Now lets just stay away from the cost thing. It's gonna kill this thread and I like reading this one.
Thanks for the insult mate, next time think before responding please

Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. Their JOB is to maximize return on investment for their shareholders.

Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. are not a monopoly or a oligopoly (dont know the EXACT spelling). So they CAN'T rip you off since they will lose market shares and profit. GW is save to rip you off for maximum profit because they are a monopoly.

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Originally Posted by returnoftheclown View Post
"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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post #45 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the insult mate, next time think before responding please

Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. Their JOB is to maximize return on investment for their shareholders.

Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. are not a monopoly or a oligopoly (dont know the EXACT spelling). So they CAN'T rip you off since they will lose market shares and profit. GW is save to rip you off for maximum profit because they are a monopoly.
No GW is NOT a monopoly as they're not the only miniature gaming company out there. They have the largest market share, sure, but that doesn't make a monopoly. You're thinking of an Oligopoly.

Even if GW was a monopoly they exist in a market where it is very easy to walk away from their product so if they actually intentionally tried to screw the customers out of every last dime like you claim then they'd have no customers. They aren't making something with an inelastic demand curve but rather a VERY elastic one and a very inelastic supply curve. Their prices are a combination of a lot of things, but "greed" is not one of them.
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post #46 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lokyar View Post
Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hasbro, EA, and a host of other gaming companies. are not a monopoly or a oligopoly (dont know the EXACT spelling). So they CAN'T rip you off since they will lose market shares and profit. GW is save to rip you off for maximum profit because they are a monopoly.
If GW had a monopoly on miniature gaming, I wouldn't be in miniature gaming.

Seriously, all the 29 sisters I have were bought used at about half retail price or I would have never got them, and the entirety of their IG allies are... Not IG allies, but models from other companies. Most of them much cheaper, some of them not quite but I liked them anyways and sometimes I just want to paint stuff even if I don't have a game plan behind them.

It has the added benefit I can also play other games and have at least some of the proper miniatures.
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post #47 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 09:11 PM
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Last I heard someone showed one of the devs on of those extra-spammy tournament lists....the person shown was not too excited by it. I think they're aware of those kind of players but aren't trying to cater to them.
There is not trying to cater to them and then there is what seems to be happening which is ignoring the issue completely. A GW involved tournamnet scene would go some way to alleviate it. As a non tournament player though I can't comment too much.

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Now where did I use the term "unfair"? I said the online community has a nasty habit of biting GW's head off and I can understand GW for not wanting to keep putting their neck out there time and time again, I never said it was completely unfair. GW has made legitimate missteps over the years, the problem is the online community treats everything GW does as a misstep.
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....
Can't blame them there. Everytime GW has tried to make itself more accessable to the playerbase it gets burned by the more toxic and spiteful members of the community. I wouldn't want to keep doing that to myself either. ....

.... Again, can you blame them? GW reminds me a lot of a spousal abuse victim only instead of anyone being sympathetic we keep telling them to go back and get thrashed some more. GW + the internet does not go good places....

.... Considering the history GW has with the internet and how customers of other game companies will launch "crusades" against GW, I can't blame them. I mean which is more sane: continually getting abused by people who are only going to chase off your potential customers, or avoiding them completely? This isn't as simple as people are making it out to be. There is a lot of anti-GW stuff out there and I can't blame any company for doing the same....

.... The internet wants GW to open up, then the internet needs to grow up....

.... the community proved itself to be a toxic mess and it's better off gone. We have far too many adults acting like children in this hobby to really consider this to be a "good idea" honestly. Or do we really expect GW to want to go out and get their nose bloodied on a weekly basis by a large and vocal part of the internet, some of which don't even play their games and just have a vendetta against GW "for reasons", every week still?...

...Frankly GW has shown attempts at trying in the past but the community has thwarted them through a refusal to change, or to even take a few minutes and check the FAQs now and then...

...if you stuck them in every box of every direct order it wouldn't be enough....

... GW does listen to feedback, but they don't listen to a loud, whiny internet community that just wants GW to favor only their toys (which to be frank is about 80% of the players who play GW games and talk about them online from what I've seen). There is a fair amount of balance in the game, it's just not nearly as strict because GW realized they had a choice: player freedom or perfectly balancing the game and they gave us freedom. It's easy to balance a game when you restrict players down to a handful of actual options (Warmachine takes it further by restricting load-outs on said options too), but GW wanted to give players freedom to play anything they think of. So the players play 4 Heldrake lists or generally act like tools. ....

...Honestly I'm not blaming GW on that one because they went with what they felt was right for them regarding the game and how it "should" be played and the community pissed on it in response....

... Honestly I blame the community for being pants on head stupid at times just as much as any real misstep GW makes because a game is nothing without players and we have a high concentration of folks who wear their bums as hats online and generally making it worse for everyone else.

(This is the only time in this post you make the mention of GW making a mistake)

First you have the negative backlash against GW no matter what they do (seriously, I swear they could make the news for donating large sums of money to an orphanage and people would claim they bough the orphans to work production lines).

I blame the internet for burning them everytime they've tried to be anything but that. GW can do nothing right when it comes to the internet, even when they try to do what's best for their customers so why engage them directly anymore? What does GW actually gain by engaging a mob of people full of individuals who only want GW to do things that benefit themselves and no one else?
And that's just from the post you made restarting this thread. Did you use the word "unfair", no, my apologies, you did not but you re-read that and tell me honestly that's not what you are inferring with quips like: "I blame the internet for burning them everytime they've tried to be anything but that. GW can do nothing right when it comes to the internet, even when they try to do what's best for their customers "


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That's some serious hyperbole about the level of crap slung GW's way
I'm sorry what? You're comparing GW to a battered wife. You are comparing a company making plastic toys to a woman whose husband beats her and she can't leave him so keeps coming back despite the physical and emotional abuse. And I'm the one slinging hyperbolic crap by saying that the level of abuse that GS gets online is not anywhere near as bad as you are making it out to be? It's certainly not something which would require anybody reading it who is on the companies pay roll to under go counseling like a Police Officer working in child protection (my example) or say I don't know, a victim of domestic abuse (Your example). To be quite honest I didn't want to get involved in this thread and then I saw that. When you start using that kind of language to describe some neck beards getting pissy at a company then don't be surprised when you get a reaction like you did from me as you yourself have turn the tap to over exaggeration. For me that's when you cross the line from trying to have a discussion and debate and started becoming a white knight. Now I know you hate that term but from where I am sitting that's what you are coming across as and that's also when I should have bitten my tongue and not replied because there is very little point but I did. Now I know that there is very little point in even bothering in responding because it's going to do very little but since I was stupid enough to get involved with a pointless fight when I should have know better I will one last time. So here goes.

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
Cost, models etc
First off when did I mention the cost of models? I didn't, because I knew what your reaction would be. I was only talking about their entrance into the digital age and how it's not them trying to engage with the community in a meaningful way, those points which you ignored by the way. Putting out the exact copy of a paper copy codex in epub costs the license for the epub software and the server costs to store it, they already have the data from the proof being sent to the printers. Hell if it doesn't work with the proof all they need is an unbound version of the book and a office scanner. Over heads? Manual labour charges?

Now you say they have to make a profit yadaya. I agree, of course they do, however two things.

1: Certain moves they make while making that profit and the PR they put out while ensuring that happens have an effect on their image. And at the moment their image amongst a vocal section of the wider gaming community is a poor one. You'd think they would want to change that. I know I would.

2: They have also made a move in recent years to choose to make an un-necessarily more expensive product when it comes to books: 4 words: Full Color, Hard Back. They doubled the price and did they offer to keep the soft back, half color ones? No they did not because they are no doubt making more profit of the FCHB. Was this change necessary or was it a choice to make a more exclusive product that they could make more money off? If they were making the same amount of profit as the HCSB then why not keep both in production as some people will want the cheaper one? If you make the same profit whats the harm? Because less people will buy the FCHB? If they are making the same profit then it doesn't matter. You can debate the advantages of HB vs SB for years and no winner will come out on top as each has it's advantages and disadvantages and often it is up to the person so don't even go down that road. No it was a move to create a more exclusive and more lucrative product and at the same time killing off a cheaper alternative. That's not attempting to engage with the community and getting it it thrown back in your face. Nor is making the digital versions a similar price. There are few overheads you mention with a digital product for GW. They are already making a Hard Copy, some re-formatting, probably a weeks worth at most and then you have nothing other than server costs and a license fee for the software (which they already have) in the way of overheads.

There is also the debatable point that according to at least one ex GW red shirt I have spoke to that at least when he was working there about in the mid to late 00's that even with the GW Staff discount GW were still making a profit on any mini they sold to the Staff. Now I know you will just discount as the ravings of the internet because you haven't heard it with your own ears or got it in writing but that's just what I was told.

Quote:
How can we tell? All the pissing and moaning drowns everything else out.
So those updated Sisters models and a proper paper copy Dex updated with new units for 6th are on the way next month are they? I mean you've written polite letters to them, I'm sure they must have read them and taken them on board since they weren't pissy and moany.

You want to get all high and mighty and lord over GW detractors and accuse people and the internet of being toxic in their opinions, how they express them and how it's "in the main" not GW's fault because you've taken a few accounting courses at uni over the last year or so? Be my guest. As a side note I will however point out that whenever I make the point that it's very easy for one person to dominate a creative team of artists (ref Matt Ward) even if they aren't in charge based on my experiences over the last 6 years of working with creatives at best I'm told I'm wrong, at worst I'm ignored. Back on topic as I said be my guest but by making statements like how GW reminds you a battered wife then you are just as bad as the people you despise. Now don't get me wrong: I have no problems with people defending GW, I have no problem calling me whatever you like, I'll take it with a smile, but if you are going to then try and make out, (which from my readings of your posts, you are, you may disagree), that you are some how superior to everybody else because you can see past your desire for a cheaper product and see the "truths" about a poor beaten down GW by the nasty internet, then, no I'm not going to bother debating this with you because there is no point. We all get smug about our views on the hobby now and again (ref my views on the Ultimate SM Codex) but I'm not going provide you with a target while you wage a one man war on the internet on behalf of GW.

And now it's time to go off and actually do something constructive with my hobby time.

Last edited by Jacobite; 12-03-13 at 09:35 PM.
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post #48 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 09:14 PM
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Ok, now that Formation Detachments are a thing?

Yeah, we need some new rules for competitive 40k.

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post #49 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 09:35 PM
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Ok, now that Formation Detachments are a thing?

Yeah, we need some new rules for competitive 40k.

Midnight
A simple ban of anything that isn't a core codex or the BRB itself will suffice. That includes supplements, FW, superheavies, buildings (other than the ones in the BRB) and formations.

Because god knows, the above list of material adds nothing useful ("useful" in this case meaning "balanced and adding diversity to tourney lists") to the competitive environment - and yes, I include the Inquisition book in that one.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #50 of 83 (permalink) Old 12-03-13, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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There is not trying to cater to them and then there is what seems to be happening which is ignoring the issue completely. A GW involved tournamnet scene would go some way to alleviate it. As a non tournament player though I can't comment too much.
GW ran tournaments from 3rd up until 5th. They still run Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World. We've been having complaints of competitive play being an issue for how long? Longer than I've been back in the hobby I'm sure.

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*snip*
I'm not going to debate costs all day because half the time I'm ignored anyways. Plus I've got far too much homework with finals coming up.

I will say you're not covering all GW's costs there though. First we have the taxes they have to pay on things, the server upkeep costs (ask Jez if you don't think that's a thing), the cost of their IT employees, the cost of the time the Digital Edition team has to spend converting the codex into a digital format (it's more than just scanning, I assure you) as well ass updating all the FAQ stuff in there, the cost of also paying those same employees to update those books for free for the life of the book, the cost of the employees who handle those FAQ/Eratta changes, and probably more that I'm not thinking of that factors into it. Yes even if it's only minutes spent knocking out an FAQ question or two that's minutes they're paying him for and have to recoup within a given number of copies sold so they can actually eventually make some money on the book and fund other books, models and projects.

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So those updated Sisters models and a proper paper copy Dex updated with new units for 6th are on the way next month are they? I mean you've written polite letters to them, I'm sure they must have read them and taken them on board since they weren't pissy and moany.
Well that's just obvious bait there. My first letter was a series of playtesting notes regarding the old book. And I have no proof but a couple of the things I did mention were Faith Points and the cost of the Heavy Flamer (not to mention how Jacobus and Celestine felt like auto-includes). They changed all four of those things.

As for a paper copy of the codex, it's coming in time. If not for this book as it is now, for the next one when there is the room and money to put a full plastic army out.

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You want to get all high and mighty and lord over GW detractors and accuse people and the internet of being toxic in their opinions, how they express them and how it's "in the main" not GW's fault because you've taken a few accounting courses at uni over the last year or so?
Want to get high and mighty? No. Want to explain things though a rational thought process that doesn't just point fingers and accuse GW of trying to nick my wallet when I'm not looking? Yes.
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