Why is it frowned on to tailor a list against a specific opponent? - Page 5 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #41 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 08:19 PM
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It's not fun playing against a tailored list. Back during 5th edition the last couple of pick-up games i've played in a gaming store i've turned up with a pre-made list (all comers, fun list). Then found an opponent who proceeds to sit down and write a list based on what army i'm playing. I've ended up losing both times. There is only so much you can do tactically if your opponent is set up to crush you. When I finally get around to learning the latest rule set I think i'll just blatantly lie what i've brought along.
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post #42 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
See that's the rub. To actually tailor a list you have to be unsportsmanlike in your behavior to this game. Your are literally meta gaming against another player who has either no idea you're going to do it or the resources to counter it.

It comes down to the extent of how you're changing your list for whoever you're playing. List tailoring is not swapping out a few special weapons, or changing one squad for another. Tailoring is literally building your army around crushing one specific players list because you know that's what they play every week.
I suppose it's one thing when you're making a list that will totally grind the opponent into dust, knowing beforehand exactly what they'll have and making sure they stand no chance.

From my experience, the list I tailored against is an army with toughness 6 or higher, strength 10 ap 2 shooting, and instant-kill power weapons against all but my HQ. If I didn't tailor my list, I would have continued to be tabled against this opponent. Yesterday I played him with this tailored list and it was a really close match. I killed his wraithknight, wraithlord, and the vast majority of his wraithguard. He killed every mini in my army except for my Heldrake. I rolled like shit with my Daemon Prince. Got grounded on turn 1 and failed the save. Then he lost 2 more wounds to shooting. Then he killed himself with his Black Mace. I bet I would have won the game if he survived long enough to kill anything, rather than being a total waste of points that game. The point being if I didn't change things up for this specific opponent, it would have been a waste of time.


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post #43 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by venomlust View Post
I suppose it's one thing when you're making a list that will totally grind the opponent into dust, knowing beforehand exactly what they'll have and making sure they stand no chance.

From my experience, the list I tailored against is an army with toughness 6 or higher, strength 10 ap 2 shooting, and instant-kill power weapons against all but my HQ. If I didn't tailor my list, I would have continued to be tabled against this opponent. Yesterday I played him with this tailored list and it was a really close match. I killed his wraithknight, wraithlord, and the vast majority of his wraithguard. He killed every mini in my army except for my Heldrake. I rolled like shit with my Daemon Prince. Got grounded on turn 1 and failed the save. Then he lost 2 more wounds to shooting. Then he killed himself with his Black Mace. I bet I would have won the game if he survived long enough to kill anything, rather than being a total waste of points that game. The point being if I didn't change things up for this specific opponent, it would have been a waste of time.
that is called adapting, not tailoring. if you get repeatedly crushed by someone and you tailor your list slightly to compensate for the fact that you're getting tabled (within the limits ofcourse) thats ok, you also wanna have fun.

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post #44 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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Fair enough, I suppose you're right about the terminology. Definitely right about wanting to have fun. I'm a new player, and even if I wasn't I wouldn't mind losing. But just watching everything ineffectually bounce off your enemy's troops and squad after squad of your own get vaporized... gee, what a pleasure.


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post #45 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-02-13, 04:31 AM
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It depends on what we define "list tailoring"

like the "asshole" that is mentioned on page 3 - the guy who sees what you have and THEN chooses a list. That is pretty low IMO.

against the "competitive list" that is being the dominate list and remains unchanged, and you are losing all the time against it? That's fine, that is making progress.

if in a group of players and where everyone brings a generic list, and your the only one who switches up the combi-weapons from plasma against DW to flamer vs foot orks. You should probably stop doing that.

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post #46 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-02-13, 01:40 PM
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Around here if you get together for a specified game, we always tailor against the army were up against. Thats for in stores and beerhammer. Trick is trying to fake them out; ie you bring Orks and your opponent will most likely try and pieplate you, so dont run hordes!

For tourneys if you dont run all comers youre dead. Thats it.
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post #47 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-03-13, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silens View Post
Not neccesarily. Nobody said that the person had no idea or didn't have the resources to counter it; you seem to have pulled that out from your rear.
If you're tailoring a list against somebody they most likely won't have any idea you're doing it unless you tell them up front "Hey, I know you play Nids so my new army is gonna be loaded with flamers and anti horde."

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Some groups of friends will tailor against each other. Some won't. In the group that do, it forces your lists to evolve into something really powerful in the end. If you play against, say, a 'nid player, a space marine player and a tau player then tailoring yourselves to fight one-another will leave you, eventually, with a list that can deal with hordes, CC armies, shooty armies, varied armies, probably flyers and FMCs.
That's not tailoring, that adapting your list to handle weaknesses it has. The two concepts are not the same.


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In my opinion, tailoring is bad sportsmanship IF the other player isn't fine with it.
So if I'm not fine with you running anti MEQ, as I play SM, it's bad sportsmanship if you do?

Last edited by Wusword77; 11-03-13 at 08:27 PM.
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post #48 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-03-13, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post

if in a group of players and where everyone brings a generic list, and your the only one who switches up the combi-weapons from plasma against DW to flamer vs foot orks. You should probably stop doing that.
nonsense, you should tell your generic list bringing friends to man up and start tweaking and stop half assed list building or suffer the consequences.



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post #49 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-03-13, 09:33 AM
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I spoke to my friends about this and they agreed that changing your list to deliberately face a specific army is just meta gaming.
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post #50 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-03-13, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
I spoke to my friends about this and they agreed that changing your list to deliberately face a specific army is just meta gaming.
Meta-gaming is a RPG phrase for 'using knowledge your character wouldn't have'.

Who's to say that your army has no idea what's coming for them? What if your the one sneaking up on your opponent and you've scouted them and know exactly what they've got?

If Captain Cato Sicarius sends in a strike team into the heart of a Tyranid hive ship, he's not going to be giving them anti-tank weapons because 'that's meta-gaming'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wusword77
If you're tailoring a list against somebody they most likely won't have any idea you're doing it unless you tell them up front "Hey, I know you play Nids so my new army is gonna be loaded with flamers and anti horde."
Well... Yeah, but you stated outright that the person would either be unable to counter your tailoring or not know about it. I just refuted that, saying that a lot of the time people will try to tailor their lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wusword77
That's not tailoring, that adapting your list to handle weaknesses it has. The two concepts are not the same.
No, me and my friends will outright tailor our lists to handle with the things we know the others bring. People going up against my Necrons know I like to take flyers, scarabs and immortals so they will take things that are going to be able to defeat my scarabs (Lots of templates, normally), some powerful anti-air stuff usually with interceptor and then things to deal with MEq whilst ignoring most of their own TEq stuff as I've got nothing of that calibre in my army. Likewise, one of my friends runs a forces of the Imperium list (Space Marines and Elysians) and I will take weapons and organise my forces accordingly. We don't just go "Oh, she's taking Scarabs again so I'll throw in a handful of flamers", it's a case of swapping out entire squads and then making the new guys' single job to deal with scarabs.

Quote:
So if I'm not fine with you running anti MEQ, as I play SM, it's bad sportsmanship if you do?
Yep. If you're not okay with it then I won't tailor my list to you. I might take more MEq than normal or run my 'standard' list if I think it will run well against MEq.

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