Why is it frowned on to tailor a list against a specific opponent? - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #31 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 09:00 AM
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^this. Even the word "Tailoring" really gives it away. If you tailor a suit, you're not making it to "sort-of" fit any man of about 6 foot tall, with a waist around 34", and so on. You're making it to fit ONE man, perfectly. It won't be a waist around 34", it'll be an exact 34.3". So as I see it, when it comes to tailoring in 40k, it's not just, "I'll take a few more flamers to help against orks", it's more "every squad will have a flamer, each sergeant will have a combi flamer, he runs X unit so I'll specifically run unit Y to deal with that, he has minimal trukks so I don't need as much anti vehicle weaponry..." As I see it, adjusting your list to help deal with a certain codex is ok. Adjusting a list to make hard counters to one specific persons army, is not ok.
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post #32 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
See that's the rub. To actually tailor a list you have to be unsportsmanlike in your behavior to this game. Your are literally meta gaming against another player who has either no idea you're going to do it or the resources to counter it.

It comes down to the extent of how you're changing your list for whoever you're playing. List tailoring is not swapping out a few special weapons, or changing one squad for another. Tailoring is literally building your army around crushing one specific players list because you know that's what they play every week.
Not neccesarily. Nobody said that the person had no idea or didn't have the resources to counter it; you seem to have pulled that out from your rear.

I have a few friends who I play 40k with and with one we discuss our lists rather underhandedly before the game. I'm taking flyers? I'll try to give him the impression I'm running a horde army or something. He does the same and we both know this so it becomes a game of poker list-building.

Some groups of friends will tailor against each other. Some won't. In the group that do, it forces your lists to evolve into something really powerful in the end. If you play against, say, a 'nid player, a space marine player and a tau player then tailoring yourselves to fight one-another will leave you, eventually, with a list that can deal with hordes, CC armies, shooty armies, varied armies, probably flyers and FMCs.


In my opinion, tailoring is bad sportsmanship IF the other player isn't fine with it.

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post #33 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 11:57 AM
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im not really getting how its un sportsman like to build a list to try and counter your buddy who has turned up week after week with the same army and handed your ass to you??would not tailoring your force to give you a fighting chance just eventually kill the game for you? and hasnt your buddy essentially done the same either by design or by chance? taking out ineffectual units and replacing or arming them to deal with the force they face is an absolute must if you want to be anything like competitive isnt it?



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post #34 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 12:57 PM
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If you continually play the same guy then yeah at a point it's worth shaking it up. If you're in a large group at the local store or club and you've arranged to play a guy who has a specific army and then you tailor it to face that army, then that's a bit low. I played Empire a week or so ago and tomorrow I'm facing lizardmen, but I'm not altering my list with it in mind.
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post #35 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 02:56 PM
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I played Empire a week or so ago and tomorrow I'm facing lizardmen, but I'm not altering my list with it in mind.
why not? given that you know your opponents army and possibly know what he may field against you? it makes sense to look at your list and your options does it not? i can see the sense of not tampering if your happy with what you have in your list and how it works, but to dismiss the idea that you shouldnt because of some notion that its some how low or unsportsman like seems well a bit silly.

dont get me wrong i can see loads of different sides to this, i myself have fielded loads of different "fluffy" weak as shit armies and been slaughtered, but for me the fun was turning up with stuff i wanted to see on the field( im a sucker for swooping hawks so shoot me), but at the same time i was also accused of not taking the game portion of the hobby seriously enough, by people who wanted me to put up an actual fight using units they knew i had access to but wasnt using because i had a pretty looking, well painted models, mincing around the battle field.

What im saying is given that your opponent next week knows hes facing you and may know your army he may well be tailoring his to meet you, you show up with the same old list you play week in week out he might think you are not taking him seriously ?

I dont know im just chucking out ideas, i just dont see altering your list for different armies and opponents as anything other than part of the game, i dont see it as low,if anything its part of the preparation for the game, tweaking and trying new stuff against people has always been something i quite liked about the game of 40k, but since the advent of fan forums there seems to be a culture of building one killer list and sticking to it.



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post #36 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 03:29 PM
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Well he's using an army new to him, completely brand new 1k lizardmen, my army is Dark Elves and it'll only be my second game. The first game I faced Empire which had a steam tank in 1k, suffice to say the steam tank single handedly won the game, taking my hydra out in the first turn without me doing anything and then running rampage through everything else.

So perhaps I'm using the same army as the first time I never got a good run out with it, both my hydra and doomfire warlocks were unable to do anything, but the other part of my army, my shades with great weapons, my sorceress with a big unit of spearmen and my bolt thrower did do quite well. Equally I'm inexperienced with my army since, as I said, it's only my second game with them, I'll alter it for my next game if things don't work again, for example I'm thinking of replacing the hydra with some cold one knights.
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post #37 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 04:15 PM
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I think you're kinda missing the point. Evolving an army to make better, more challenging games isn't what I'd consider tailoring. I'd consider changing your entire army to hard counter little timmys space marines and utterly crushing him as tailoring.
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post #38 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 04:24 PM
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So do you think I should alter my list then in a 1k game to face the lizardmen? I wouldn't know what to do anyway as I've never faced them and only know they are hard to break. It still seems wrong to me even altering my list because I know what army I'm facing. I have other lists I made before I knew I was facing the lizardmen, so I guess I could use them but the idea of altering my list because I know I'm facing lizardmen makes me think it's unsportsmanlike and unfair.

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post #39 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silens View Post
you play against, say, a 'nid player, a space marine player and a tau player then tailoring yourselves to fight one-another will leave you, eventually, with a list that can deal with hordes, CC armies, shooty armies, varied armies, probably flyers and FMCs.


In my opinion, tailoring is bad sportsmanship IF the other player isn't fine with it.
I certainly agree that tailoring is bad sportsmanship if the other player doesn't know and have an opportunity to do the same back.

To your first point which I quoted, and to what Bits had been saying, I think there is a reasonable difference between rewriting your army to handle new situations or problems. That's part of learning and growing as a player and building an army.

Tailoring looks like bad form when it results in a list which is really useful against its intended victim but of less use against others. When I have an army which is exactly what I need to beat my friend's Eldar army, but would get stomped by most marine lists or ork lists then I might be guilty of tailoring.

If by contrast I analyze the tau, nids, and marines in my group and write a list that can handle all of them, then what I really have is the makings of an all-comers list. I haven't written a list especially for those tau at the expense of my ability to fight the bugs or marines.

Along this line of thinking we eventually get to a point of maximum utility for the army book. Where a list is about as effective as it can be at a given points range within the choices available. And then we're in competitive territory that @MidnightSun can speak more eloquently about than I.

There is a difference between writing the most competitive possible list and tailoring your army.

To the OP's point, revising your list to better cope with a difficult enemy is not necessarily tailoring.

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post #40 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
Along this line of thinking we eventually get to a point of maximum utility for the army book. Where a list is about as effective as it can be at a given points range within the choices available. And then we're in comparative territory that @MidnightSun can speak more eloquently about than I.
You don't need to tailor your CSM list when you have 3 Heldrakes, kids!

But seriously, if you optimise your list, there's very little point in tailoring. That's the point of optimisation. The units in a really good list should always be able to engage something effectively, rather than being bad at fighting a certain army. Ask a Leafblower Guard player if he list tailored. Or a Venomspam player. I'd use Draigowing as an example too, but they don't even have the option to tailor (10 Paladins, 4 MC Psycannons, Apothecary, 2x Hammer, 4x Halberd, Brotherhood Banner. Options: May add Warding Stave).

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