Why is it frowned on to tailor a list against a specific opponent? - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #21 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 07:50 AM
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I think there's another dimension to this. In many editions of 40k the actual sequence of the game was
- choose points
- determine mission/scenario
- build army list
- set up terrain
-etc.

So the expectation on paper was that most players would be able to write their army knowing who and what they were playing. In practice this rarely worked. Most often players would arrive at a club or FLGS with a list written. Because we only have so many models and we can't carry everything with us all the time.

So when you can't build your army for the scenario, players are forced to try to build an all-comers list not knowing what they will be up against.

In this context we have the stigma against list tailoring because it suggests that one player knows their opponent's army before the game but the opponent doesn't know theirs. Which is less sporting.

There are problems with list tailoring here.
First, a tailored list matches your units up 1:1 to counter a specific player as you expect them to play. As Vaz pointed out if they change their list you may be screwed. Second, if your list is tailored against one player then you are typically helpless against any other player.

Friends of mine had something of a vendetta going against one another, Orks vs Eldar. And the ork player tailored the heck out of his list to kill the Eldar player. However my friend with the Eldar player brought an assault focused space marine list (and drew the guerrilla war mission, for those of you who are unfamiliar it awarded 1 victory point for every 3 models killed in close combat. Can you say, "hello gretchin!")

The check-proof to this logic problem is the well built all comers list vs the tailored list. This style of list ideally will handle any event fairly still regardless of the situation. As you pay and realize your list is lacking things, when you rebalance you are moving towards a solid all comers list.

In other words a good all comers list should typically beat a tailored list without too much trouble, all things being otherwise equal.

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post #22 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 09:20 AM
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As others have stated, I have no problem with list tailoring - To an extend.

If people make a special "Ok this is going to crush Daemons" list, I'm totally fine with it. Bring your worst and I will adapt for the next fight. However, the golden rule (as I see it) is that both lists are locked before they are shown to the enemy. You are not able to change it based on what the enemy has brought.

As long as the above is true, then I see no problem in list tailoring. Hell, I even expect it when facing opponents.
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post #23 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 12:32 PM
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That is exactly the way I see it, you don't know for sure what your opponent is bringing to the table. You think of what your opponent might be using to counter your units and try to think of a way to counter those. That way even the worst units in a codex could potentially become gamebreaking and thats what I'd like to see^^.

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post #24 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 12:36 PM
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I don't understand how people can not tailor to some extent when they know what they are facing, but I don't understand how people CAN tailor in a competitive setting.

Generally in competitive settings you are at a tournament playing against people you haven't met before - how can you tailor to an army you nothing about? Especially when you are going to be playing other people who will have completely different armies.

If you are playing someone you play regularly and you know that they bring lots of terminators, why would you then decide to continue with your list that that is only equipped to details with a unit or two, you are knowingly putting yourself at a disadvantage.

But as people said there is a limit to how much is acceptable, a list shouldn't be tailored to wipe out an ary turn two (albeit that is quite a hard thing to do). I think tailoring is fine and actually very hard not to do if it is against someone you play refularly - in my gaming group we buy units all the time to deal with specific armies *cough* 2 mortis dreadnoughts and quad gun to get rid of a helldrake *cough*

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow
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post #25 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
Tailoring a list means I built it to be a hard counter to another players list.
Adjusting a list means I saw weaknesses in my list and changed a few models to compensate for it.
I don't think I'm misunderstanding, and I can see how it could be frustrating. However, it just seems sensible. If I am playing my friends, I'll build a list towards either defeating whichever army they play or making the game enjoyable. I very rarely bring the same list twice in a row, and neither do they. If one unit gets dominated by a counter, they either change it or change how they play it. If one of them figures out a list that will dominate one of my armies, I'll look at how I can reconfigure to offset his tactics and wrongfoot him.

I'm rambling, but essentially I feel that there is nothing wrong with list tailoring unless you are also not being sportsmanlike in your general behaviour and entering into the spirit of the game.

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post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
I don't understand how people can not tailor to some extent when they know what they are facing, but I don't understand how people CAN tailor in a competitive setting.
Simply by tracking the latest releases. When 6th came out and flyers were obviously overpowered, Necron Air-Cav was all you saw. When the Tau codex came out then everyone was like "Tau plus ally with a decent Troops choice" and then when the Eldar hit the shelves it was "Serpent Spam 101".

Just by watching what the competitive blogs and forums are talking about, you can get a pretty decent handle on what's going to arrive at your next tournament.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 06:28 PM
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The really impressive thing to see isn't an army tailored to kill necron air cav (just an example), but an army that can cope with that as well as other power builds.

Chaos Army Showcase with photos (Updated 2013/12/02)
"To endure one's self is perhaps the hardest task in the universe." Frank Herbert, 'Dune Messiah'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dethklokk
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

Originally Posted by Deathscythe4722
Could someone please call the police on this guy? I can hear the English Language screaming in pain. This has to be illegal somewhere.
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post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post

If people make a special "Ok this is going to crush Daemons"
meet every GK list ever made

Quote:
Originally Posted by returnoftheclown View Post
"Can has gun with boom boom?"
"No mongo, your intellect is too...err...specialised for that, here take the heavy flamer"
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post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 10-31-13, 09:38 PM
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My armies are always well rounded imo, I always have a versatile amount of troops, I always have some ranged fire power with atleast some form of blast weapon and I always have a unit that can contend ok in melee if needs be. I don't like tailoring lists, I don't like annoying my opponent, I want a friendly competitive game.

If I wanted I could max lists out to be utterly destructive, but then it would be a false sense of victory, I'd rather barely triumph or lose using a balanced list than win out right with an obviously bias and imbalanced list.

I bring lists of different levels to the store with me, sometimes I'll make alterations but only after the game and if I've learnt something, most of the time though I'll just figure out I need to use them in a different way.

So to put it plainly, building lists to face specific opponents makes the game false as it basically means you've cheated, since you've stacked the deck against your opponent.
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post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-01-13, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iraqiel View Post
I'm rambling, but essentially I feel that there is nothing wrong with list tailoring unless you are also not being sportsmanlike in your general behaviour and entering into the spirit of the game.
See that's the rub. To actually tailor a list you have to be unsportsmanlike in your behavior to this game. Your are literally meta gaming against another player who has either no idea you're going to do it or the resources to counter it.

It comes down to the extent of how you're changing your list for whoever you're playing. List tailoring is not swapping out a few special weapons, or changing one squad for another. Tailoring is literally building your army around crushing one specific players list because you know that's what they play every week.
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