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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Default Massive hangover for DA players?

Hey folks,

After the release of some new DA stuff and the DV boxed set, I ended up with quite a few DA miniatures by now (swapping out chaos stuff etc). That made me buy the new codex and invest a little time and effort in my DA miniatures. But after the release of C:SM and skimming through that, I can't help but feel quite ripped off for choosing the DA chapter now.

It just seems that most things in the DA book, has a better "equivalent" in the vanilla marine book. I would have been able to understand that for SW or BA, because there's a whole edition between those releases... But DA and SM are just months away from eachother.

On top of that, it seems to me that the chapter with the oldest and most arcane wargear are now chumps who froze time and didn't evolve with any of the new tools...

This is especially true for ravenwing armies it seems:

It seems C:SM does bike armies better than ravenwing does (quite a big difference in points there between ravenwing bikers and SM bikers) due to possible chapter tactics and a cheaper unlock to making bike units troops...

For a 6 point a model difference, the ravenwing gets scouts, grim resolve and teleport homer.... The white scar based chapters get +1 jink, auto-pass dangerous terrain and +1S on hammer of wrath hits. Quite frankly, you'd have to be an ass to choose ravenwing now over white scars.

Not only that, but if you choose white scars, you seem to have options to better engage in air fights (yes, the DA flyers just really are THAT BAD) or anti-air defense (some DA just plain don't do well either).

Anyway, I guess I'm just massively disappointed now with the DA book. People often talk about chaos being the big fizzle of 6th... but at least they have hellturkeys to keep them competitive on the table. For me, the DA are by far the biggest miss this edition. At least for chaos, there's also the glimmer of hope in supplements.

So is there any reason to continue painting these DA models, or should I just throw in the towel and toss them on e-bay? I'm talking about a gaming point of view, not aesthetics or fluff.

I had an AMAZING time at fightclub.

I arrived a bit late, so I missed the introductions, but man... I had an awesome time at fightclub! 10/10 I would recommend fight club to anybody!
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 08:16 AM
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The exact same happened with the previous DA and SM book, the DA are just a test book, not a serious army, but Jo reason to chuck the models, paint them as DA (or as anything you want) and just use the marine codex instead.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella Cadente View Post
The exact same happened with the previous DA and SM book, the DA are just a test book, not a serious army, but Jo reason to chuck the models, paint them as DA (or as anything you want) and just use the marine codex instead.
+1

Just use them as your own "Mysterious and hooded dudes who aren't Dark or Angelic" Chapter.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 11:55 AM
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I agree. I find it kind of stupid that you have to play White Scars to play Dark Angels.

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Dark Elves W0 T0 L0
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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I certainly wouldn't mind using that C:SM for the DA...

But at the same time, it's a bit of a TFG flag as well... ;)

I had an AMAZING time at fightclub.

I arrived a bit late, so I missed the introductions, but man... I had an awesome time at fightclub! 10/10 I would recommend fight club to anybody!
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 01:00 PM
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It's a Transitional Federal Government flag?
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 01:39 PM
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First of all, the Dark Angels are more than just a bike list. Considering the costs for Greenwing units are the same in both codexes (DW and RW units both have abilities beyond normal C:SM units and have slightly different costs) and discounting that the two armies have different relics. What does the C:SM have that the C:DA does not?
Chapter Tactics? No, the DA has chapter tactics...Grim Resolve and Inner Circle, (you may not like them, but they have them)
So that leaves the Centurions, the Grav Gun, their aircraft, Stern/Vanguard, and the Hunter/Stalker, biomancy for librarians.
What do the DA have that C:SM do not. Unique Deathwing units and rules (Deathwing Assault, DW vehicle), Unique Ravenwing units and rules, Chapter Banners, Several nice items of wargear (porta-rack, Conversion and power fields), divination for their librarians, interrogator chaplain.

Not really alot to complain about in the overall rules/toys department. Grav Guns and centurions are not going to suddenly make C:SM armies hyper-competitive, but you are going to see alot of C:SM army because they are still the most popular army in the game.

Even, if you are just straight up comparing the two codexes based on one army option (the all bike option: Raven v WS) the answer isn't simply "WS are better".

A bike centric White Scar army cannot field reliable Close Combat bike units, cannot drop as much plasma spam, has no equivalent to the Dark Shroud, Dakka Banner, and Power Fields, cannot field Land Speeders as troops and lacks any real massed infantry killers like the Dark Talon and Vengeance. Not to mention the added bonus of gaining up to 4 units in a single Troop or Fast Attack slot (Ravenwing Squadron).

Now if you are going to expand that WS army to include all C:SM units (or even use a different Chapter Tactic), then expand out the Dark Angel list to include all of it's toys as well and the comparisons are more even. Even in the AA options, the Hunter/Stalker are little more than replacements for an Aegis defense line.

If you feel the C:SM got better toys than the C:DA then go ahead and switch, like Stella said above, start playing your "robed codex chapter". However, the DA codex will stack up against a SM army. Just play to the strengths of your codex and if you really want to access some of the nifty toys in C:SM...SM are Battle Brothers and that is what the allies chart is for.

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Ofcourse DA is more than a bike-list. But yeah… I do think they got the shaft. Doesn’t seem like I’m the only one.

Greenwing is very similar to C:SM. Dakka banner will make it pretty good too. But so far, it’s pretty much the only thing that’s a glimmer of hope in the DA book (that one banner).

Grim resolve and inner circle are definite advantages compared to regular C:SM. But then again, inner circle is for select units only, so it’s pretty much down to grim resolve. Not THAT impressive, especially when pitted against any of the new chapter tactics.

You left out thunderfire cannons as well. The orbital strike company masters. The land speeder storm (with scouts who can carry a teleport homer btw…). The ironclad dreadnought.

The flyers that DA get are just plain ridiculously bad (seriously overcosted) and no anti-air options apart from flak devastators (…) meaning they are the most gimped army to face other armies heavily invested in airpower. 180 for the nephilim vs the 200 stormraven? Really…? 6th puts a serious emphasis on air power, and DA are the most gimped army in that department by quite a bit. The hunter/stalker isn’t limited to 1 per army either… they are pretty solid investments, especially with their armor 12.

The ravenwing heavy lists are just plain subpar to the white scars ones. Screw “troops” land speeders. They can’t contest anyway. You do get combat squad options… But seriously, how does that justify the increase of 6 points per model!?

The darkshroud is a living joke now that white scars based armies get that +1 to their cover save build in (did I mention at -6pts/model, not at 80p on a fragile platform with a limited bubble of effect). Again, the only thing that’ll keep ravenwing somewhat in the game, is that banner of devastation again.

The darktalon and vengeance are jokes! You cannot be serious when you consider those 2 affronts of “page filler” as an advantage to DA armies.

I think all of these are going to make C:DA the “nids of 5th edition”. Hardly that good when first released, and getting kicked in the nuttsack by every single release after them in the same edition.

I had an AMAZING time at fightclub.

I arrived a bit late, so I missed the introductions, but man... I had an awesome time at fightclub! 10/10 I would recommend fight club to anybody!
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 03:34 PM
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Well it seems that you have made up your mind, so why bother coming to the forums and asking the question?

If you don't understand why a Ravenwing biker costs 6pts more than a standard C:SM biker; Scout, Teleport Homers, and Hit & Run.

The Ravenwing has 2 different units that have Skilled Rider (Black Knights and Command Squad) which is basically what "Born in the Saddle" is. Plus you can stack the Darkshroud on top of that giving a better cover save than the White Scars.

White Scars at best have 1 "good" close combat option, a Command Squad on bikes. A dedicated Ravenwing army can field 4 (Command Squad + 3 Black Knights), all of which are also sporting Plasma across the entire unit and can field a grenade launcher that makes them even better in CC.

The armies are different, they play differently.

All Ravenwing was not the best way to play Dark Angels from the beginning and Space Marine Players are going to find out All-Bike White Scar armies are not the best way to play C:SM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmir View Post
Ofcourse DA is more than a bike-list.
Hard to tell from your rant.

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-25-13, 03:45 PM
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I don't agree with DA being "kicked" as has been said. Are they less shiney? No, I don't think so. But, not for the reasons listed, which I think are valid. If you want the White Scars benefit, ally with White Scars. Just tell your opponent all your bikers are White Scar bikers. But, to my commentary. The DA are good and fun for a great reason. Their "chapter relics". They are the ancient Rogue trader relics, and it's dang fun to play with them. And they get shoals of plasma. Focussing on "White scars are better" loses some important things.

Can a White Scar Bike Army save better sometimes than a DA? yes. Can a non-bike specific DA army be betterthan a White Scar? again I say yes.

And they fit in a smaller case.
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