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post #121 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Because some people don't have £120 to spend on plastic dragons?

Midnight
Plus some of us think the model is shit
Why am I going to buy 3 crappy models just because its a powerful choice?
Why should I sacrifice theme and enjoyment for power and lack of opponents?
Why should I copy a list written by a brainless spamming cockbag who posts it and plays it so that he feels superior to everyone else because he can best my toys in a game by using no brain at all?
Yeah sounds fun
NOT

Like I said, your taking a powerful list so you have a guaranteed victory, your not good at the game, and your not good at making lists, don't delude yourself into thinking your gods gift to 40k just because your able to count to 3, don't think your army deserves to be worshipped by everyone because it lacks any thought to buy or use.
Your spamming to win, your spamming to have fun for yourself, your spamming because you have nothing but contempt for your opponents, your spamming because you don't give a fuck about anyone except you, your spamming because your too stupid to think of how to win.


Last edited by Stella Cadente; 09-13-13 at 06:33 PM.
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post #122 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 06:34 PM
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To borrow the earlier sports example, this is like one team expecting a scrimmage and another a world championship. Or two teams coming to the field one which can afford far better players.

I think a lot of this discussion is really academic. As it has been pointed out in many previous threads, a 3 Heldrake (or equivalent) list is only a problem if the players haven't talked about what sort of a game they want before hand.

It is probably just as boring for sethis to table a player who is fielding an army of Eldar pastoralists with wraithbone pitchforks and the odd space cow, as it is for the same player to set up facing 3 Heldrakes.

Both players are responsible for communicating what type of hand they want to play.

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post #123 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by neferhet View Post
I'm not crippling myself if i decide to play a fluffy list.
Maybe not, but you are making a conscious choice to play a less competitive game than another, alternative list built using the same codex. That is your decision, and therefore the consequences (you getting tabled) are on your head, not your opponents. Blaming them for being "cheesy" when you're running a 120 cultist Typhus list (or equivalent) is not just childish, it's absurd.

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I simply cannot understand why you say that if you don not win you cannot have fun and if you do not exploit any and each way to win you are crippling yourself
That's not what I said at all. I said that SOME players find winning to be fun, and a significant reason to play the game, while others find winning to be completely secondary to engaging in a social storytelling experience. I make no value judgement on which is "better" because it's a completely subjective matter. When I use "cripple" and "disadvantage" then I'm speaking in pure gaming and mathematical terms, not the value of the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Stella Cadente View Post
because the game is not about just you.
As they say, it takes two to tango
But then why should a player who wants to win give a fuck about being a good sport.
So following your logic in your previous post, your idea of the best way to play is for each player to write the list for his opponent? That way each player is fighting against a list that they don't mind playing against? Because you're essentially saying that my opponent should be allowed to control to a greater or lesser degree what models I put on the table.

And again, you're making no distinction between bad sportsmanship and competitive gaming. If every competitive gamer was a bad sport, then there would be a lot of prizes going spare at events for the Sportsmanship Award...

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GW didn't produce a game conducive to serious and balanced competitive play. The authors of every edition of the game have maintained the purpose is fun, creativity, cooperation, and narrative.
So in that vein, why is it ok for casual players to belittle, criticize, and otherwise bitch about competitive players instead of working within that atmosphere of fun and co-operation? Why are people more receptive to those complaints than complaints about "I wish those fucking fluff bunnies would grow a pair and learn to actually use tactics". Why aren't both ends of the spectrum more tolerant, if that's the flavour of the game system?

On a side note, what the designers of a product intend, and what that product eventually gets used for are not always the same. Does that mean that someone using a product for an unintended purpose should not be allowed to do so? Is their "fun" any less valid than the "fun" obtained by using the product as recommended by the manufacturer? I mean, I strap fireworks to a staff and spin it around my body at bonfire night. Obviously fireworks aren't designed to be used that way, but I have a hell of a lot of fun, and so does anyone watching me. Does someone then have the right to say "That's not the way they were intended to be used, my way is better"?

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Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post
Given that, it behooves the players to honestly discuss what kind of a game they want to have. Fielding anything other than the most points optimized list is not by definition playing to a lower standard. That would only be true if the measure of a good game was strictly how competitive it was.
Which is exactly what I recommended in my post. That people bitch less, and communicate/compromise more. The point of the thread is that people seem unwilling to do that, and assume that because you play competitively, you are a dick to be avoided.

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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Because some people don't have £120 to spend on plastic dragons
Come on. I've seen people with collections totalling tens of thousands of pounds who wouldn't know a competitive list if it shat in their bed, and people who have to buy everything off ebay, like myself, because they can't afford NIB prices even from Wayland, but still manage to win tournaments regularly. Money is not a barrier to competitive play. You just need to be willing to shop second hand, convert heavily, or even proxy if you have to. But that's equally true if you wanted to play a "fluffy" Elysian Drop Troops list, because FW prices, right? You can spend as much or as little as you want on this hobby, and it has nothing to do with how well you play on the table.

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It is probably just as boring for sethis to table a player who is fielding an army of Eldar pastoralists with wraithbone pitchforks and the odd space cow, as it is for the same player to set up facing 3 Heldrakes.
Correct. Which is why I routinely set myself a 100-400pt handicap in casual games at the local GW. It's the only way I can make the game fun for both of us.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.

Last edited by Sethis; 09-13-13 at 06:43 PM.
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post #124 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 06:41 PM
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It is probably just as boring for sethis to table a player who is fielding an army of Eldar pastoralists with wraithbone pitchforks and the odd space cow, as it is for the same player to set up facing 3 Heldrakes.
True, but saying 'You brought Kherudruakh and 30 Mandrakes, you're such a jerk!' doesn't have nearly the same ring to it.

I think it's because fighting melee Footdar is boring, but not because you sit there and watch your models get pulled off the table while you have no counter to what your opponent does. 3 Heldrakes is difficult for some armies to counter with an infinite amount of money.

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post #125 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 07:13 PM
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Insulting people for the type of list they choose is fairly stupid whatever side of the fence your sat on. Being a dick rests on more than the type of list you build same as being a fluff gamer doesn't automatically qualify you for a sainthood.
Yes some lists are overpowered against the majority of codex's and as a result are the ones that are commonly seen for whatever reason but the Necron flying circus list that my opponent uses while a dickish list that gives me little chance of a win is still visually nice to look at and used by a really nice bloke, Yet one of the other players who plays space marines badly and gives little tactical challenge acts like a 2 year old and leaves me irritated beyond belief.
Being a dick is not exclusive to the list you use and arguing one way or the other will go on as long as the hobby exists.

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post #126 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by neilbatte View Post
Being a dick is not exclusive to the list you use
I completely agree. This one guy at my local club, the most annoying person to play ever. He triple measures everything, gets dicky about obvious calls, and generally shows no respect for his opponents, and yet he is one of the worst players in the club and has few remotely competitive lists. Another friend of mine plays very competitive Tau but is one of the nicest people I have ever met.

That being said, I can understand how competitive lists versus casual gamers can get very annoying, but I just try to see it as a challenge to be overcome - winning with my semi-competitive tac list versus their "cheese," if you will. Some people don't share that view, but generally, at least where I am, people are either competitive or are ok with playing against people who are or don't play against people who are. It works out fairly beautifully.

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post #127 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-13-13, 11:36 PM
Grr! That is all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Because some people don't have £120 to spend on plastic dragons?

Midnight
Expensive game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella Cadente View Post
Plus some of us think the model is shit
Why am I going to buy 3 crappy models just because its a powerful choice?
Why should I sacrifice theme and enjoyment for power and lack of opponents?
Why should I copy a list written by a brainless spamming cockbag who posts it and plays it so that he feels superior to everyone else because he can best my toys in a game by using no brain at all?
Yeah sounds fun
NOT

Like I said, your taking a powerful list so you have a guaranteed victory, your not good at the game, and your not good at making lists, don't delude yourself into thinking your gods gift to 40k just because your able to count to 3, don't think your army deserves to be worshipped by everyone because it lacks any thought to buy or use.
Your spamming to win, your spamming to have fun for yourself, your spamming because you have nothing but contempt for your opponents, your spamming because you don't give a fuck about anyone except you, your spamming because your too stupid to think of how to win.
Still sounds like excuses to me. Though I guess I can sort of understand where you are coming from. When my friends and I have played Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance there is this one person who always builds a bazillion tiny units and sends them over. It is like a Tyranid rush or Zerg rush, it does irritate people a little. They usually end up taking a few people out right off the bat.

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Originally Posted by JAMOB View Post
I completely agree. This one guy at my local club, the most annoying person to play ever. He triple measures everything, gets dicky about obvious calls, and generally shows no respect for his opponents, and yet he is one of the worst players in the club and has few remotely competitive lists. Another friend of mine plays very competitive Tau but is one of the nicest people I have ever met.

That being said, I can understand how competitive lists versus casual gamers can get very annoying, but I just try to see it as a challenge to be overcome - winning with my semi-competitive tac list versus their "cheese," if you will. Some people don't share that view, but generally, at least where I am, people are either competitive or are ok with playing against people who are or don't play against people who are. It works out fairly beautifully.
Question. When you guys go to play is there a list or something? I mean you are set to play a certain person or do you just sign in on a sheet and then play? I was wondering why you cannot just refuse to play a certain person or choose to play someone else.

I have never played a game myself. i think though I caught a few glimpses of one being played when I was in Seattle once at a Wizards Of The Coast store.


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post #128 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-14-13, 12:30 AM
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I think comparing 40k to a sport is silly, because there is so much emphasis in the rulebook on forging a narrative and co-operation between players and being a good sport, it is abundantly clear it is not (and never was in any edition I can remember) designed for high-competitive gaming. It isn't anything like a sport.

That said, if you wanna use sport analogies, if a big professional football team played an tiny amateur football team, they wouldn't bring their best players and play as if they were in a cup final would they? They would bring a bunch of rookies and try out new tactics and players. And I think the same applies to 40k, as most people do actually take it easy on new players or players who are known at their club to be a non-competitive players...Unless they are complete assholes, of course.

And actually, that kind of lends itself to another point: Most people at gaming clubs know each other, and if not, I think when you organise a game most people will ask each other if they are bringing a fun list, experimental list, or if they want a competitive game, or a list to test out for an upcoming tournament, and so forth...
Fair play to the guy everyone knows at one of our clubs: He makes it known to anyone who asks for a game that he is a highly competitive player and is only interested in tournies and practicing for tournies. Everyone respects him for being this honest.

I think generally speaking most people at gaming clubs are quite honest about their lists and what they want out of games. Most people are also sporting and are considerate of the other player...At least that is how it is in my hometown. If people are obnoxious and inconsiderate they will soon find they cannot get games, as they gain a bad reputation.

So to the person who said something like "Why should I care about my opponent's enjoyment?" Wow. I would never in a million years want to play you and find that really unsporting and selfish (because it is, no 2 ways about it). If you were honest about how what type of list you want to bring I would be completely cool with it, but I doubt you would be since you have stated you don't see why you should care about your fellow gamers. But each to their own I suppose.
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post #129 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-14-13, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by WaLkAwaY View Post
Expensive game...
So only the people who can drop £120 on plastic dragons deserve to compete?

Wow.

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post #130 of 162 (permalink) Old 09-14-13, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
So only the people who can drop £120 on plastic dragons deserve to compete?

Wow.

Midnight
Well of course durrrr, its a social status thing, not just a silly game
The main factor of 40k now is wallethammer, the biggest wallet wins


Last edited by Stella Cadente; 09-14-13 at 11:25 AM.
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