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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 01:22 PM
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The way we do things around here is pretty fun, and fair. We have points you accumulate through the games themselves (margin of victory, etc), a different score for painting (determined by the judges/to in between matches when your army is on display), and finally for sportsmanship, after each match you rate your opponent, those get added up at the end. First and second place is determined by battle points, obviously. Best appearance and best sportsman are completely separate , and 1st/2nd place can't win either award. It spreads out the prizes, and gives people who had a bad round or whatever a chance to walk away with something.
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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
I can't seem to rephrase myself so that you understand me. This isn't about what tournaments *I* choose to go to - it's about the entire global tournament scene and why I think it's flawed on a basic level. For example having a painting score doesn't make the competition open to a wider sector of the hobby community, if anything it just penalises people who aren't as good at painting as someone else. If we were talking about painting competitions, then fine. But we're not. We're talking about gaming competitions. It's exactly the same as saying "Adding a gaming tournament to determine the winner of Golden Demon would open it to a wider selection of the hobby community" which is pure nonsense.

So start your own that have different rules.
You believe that tournies are about gaming only, that does not seem to be the view of tournament organisers the world over.
The painting component of tournies are there for quite valid reasons.

Last edited by Magpie_Oz; 08-22-13 at 01:44 PM.
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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 01:59 PM
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I have multiple issues with soft scores.

To start with- painting is inherently unfair because of commission painting. The fact that a player can literally pay someone else to contribute what is often a significant amount to other their score defeats the purpose of the tournament in the first place- it becomes less about the person who owns the army, when they can get a boost as high as 20%, purely based on whether they could afford a commission. You can't really try to ban commission painted armies either, as that would be next to impossible to enforce without having unscrupulous honesty on the part of multiple parties who have every reason to be dishonest.

Sports is also a farce, no other competitive game/sport/event has such a pussyfooted way of dealing with poor sportsmanship. Every other event will happily boot you if you're a poor sport, but for some reason 40k has opted for a system that not only fails to guarantee good behaviour, but actually gives poor sports a method of getting ahead in the form of "chipmunking" or "sports sniping".

And let's not even talk about the C word...

Anyways, luckily my club holds monthly tournaments that basically get around these issues. Zero sports, and painting is a separate competition- actual tournament placings are determined by 100% battle. It generally attracts some pretty strong local players, usually having around half the NSW ATC team there. If you're ever in Sydney, Australia Sethis, we'd absolutely love to have you along .

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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 02:07 PM
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And there we have it. If you don't like it just play it your own way.

I have to say it is a pretty sad individual who has to pay a commission to win points in a gaming tournament or what ever the fuck chipmunking is, for the good sportsman awards.

Pretty much missing the point all round I reckon.

Last edited by Magpie_Oz; 08-22-13 at 02:10 PM.
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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz View Post
And there we have it. If you don't like it just play it your own way.

I have to say it is a pretty sad individual who has to pay a commission to win points in a gaming tournament or what ever the fuck chipmunking is, for the good sportsman awards.

Pretty much missing the point all round I reckon.
Tons of people do it. I've been to several events where the top tables have largely been painted by one or two guys. One or twice a TO has asked a prominent local commission painter to judge painting at his event- and the guy has ended up marking like 5 armies he painted personally. That said, I doubt most people who have armies commission painted to so with the sole intention of getting ahead in a tournament- but it is a very happy side bonus, and it is unfair.

Chipmunking, or sports sniping, is where you deliberately give an opponent a bad sports score in order to harm their chances of making the top tables, regardless of how good a sport they actually were. It's not a very common occurence, but it does happen, and is generally done by the exact kind of people that sports scores are supposed to vet out- it's a stupidly counterintuitive system. It's sad, but it happens.

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post #16 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 03:03 PM
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Like I said, totally missing the point.
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post #17 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 04:35 PM
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I'm also against soft-scores, master painters don't go to gaming tournaments to be awarded for painting, they to painting tournaments, gaming tournaments are to award good gaming, not good painting or small talk, a Nate minimum of painting is not harse, it's normal in sports, same with booting out or punishing dicks, you can reward your prince Charles, which is fine, but you should keep it separate
In a tounament I go to, they award you points for fluff as well and to have large portions of the points given by personal opinions is just wrong in gaming events, that TO doesnt think your squads look different enough because their both blue? Points should not be deducted.
You should not award basic behaviour or requirements, you should punish sub par ones though, and keep none relevant scores separate

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post #18 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coke123 View Post
If you're ever in Sydney, Australia Sethis, we'd absolutely love to have you along .
In all seriousness, give me a year or two. I'm currently building up my CV as an outdoor activity instructor with the ultimate aim of getting a job in NZ, Aus, Canada or USA once i have enough qualifications. Of those places, Aus seems to have the best tournament circuit.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #19 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 08:14 PM
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I think WHW events have a pretty good system with most of there softer events, they don't have sportsmanship points they just have an awars that they give out and they only give out if one someone goes up to them and say 'this guy was really polite, friendly etc.' and it is generally the painting which splits all the players who win all there games (as there are generally a lot of them), if in a tournament everyone plays everyone then painting scores become unfair because it is eady to find who is the best.

You may be asking well why not use VP to distinguish but the scoring for the 6th ed games types can vary from a max of 6 pts in one game (Relic) to 18 in other (like the scouring) so person X can win the relic and lose the scouring and have a total VP of say 10 whereas it could be the other way around and you have 16 VP. Some tourneys put winners against winners but this won't solve that probelm because you could win but have a huge range of different VP results, and it would just depends who you are put up against (whether it is someone who is of equal skill or is just starting out) as to whether you get more VP or not.

The player is the person who controls how well they paint or whether they win or not, but the victory points per game depends on the scenarios played and who they are put up against). As I said WHW have a very good system and the painting is split up into several categories worth 3 pts (may be wrong) and they are, basing, sqaud markings, leader, appearance as a whole and something else I can't remeber, this gives you a maximum of 15pts and the games can get you 30pts and in softer tourney's this doesn't really matter because if you have an amazingly painted army you could be put against 3 grand tournament finalists and lose all your games. But it more competitive tourneys this amount of points is brought right down to balance it.

I do though completely agree with the having your list in on time points as its not a skill as to whether you can give it in, anyone can do it, it justs speeds things up for the TOs and makes the tourny run more smoothly .

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow
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post #20 of 62 (permalink) Old 08-22-13, 08:15 PM
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I think WHW events have a pretty good system with most of there softer events, they don't have sportsmanship points they just have an awars that they give out and they only give out if one someone goes up to them and say 'this guy was really polite, friendly etc.' and it is generally the painting which splits all the players who win all there games (as there are generally a lot of them), if in a tournament everyone plays everyone then painting scores become unfair because it is eady to find who is the best.

You may be asking well why not use VP to distinguish but the scoring for the 6th ed games types can vary from a max of 6 pts in one game (Relic) to 18 in other (like the scouring) so person X can win the relic and lose the scouring and have a total VP of say 10 whereas it could be the other way around and you have 16 VP. Some tourneys put winners against winners but this won't solve that probelm because you could win but have a huge range of different VP results, and it would just depends who you are put up against (whether it is someone who is of equal skill or is just starting out) as to whether you get more VP or not.

The player is the person who controls how well they paint or whether they win or not, but the victory points per game depends on the scenarios played and who they are put up against). As I said WHW have a very good system and the painting is split up into several categories worth 3 pts (may be wrong) and they are, basing, sqaud markings, leader, appearance as a whole and something else I can't remeber, this gives you a maximum of 15pts and the games can get you 30pts and in softer tourney's this doesn't really matter because if you have an amazingly painted army you could be put against 3 grand tournament finalists and lose all your games. But it more competitive tourneys this amount of points is brought right down to balance it.

I do though completely agree with the having your list in on time points as its not a skill as to whether you can give it in, anyone can do it, it justs speeds things up for the TOs and makes the tourny run more smoothly .

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow
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