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post #61 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
While I understand that sentiment, 40k has not been a skirmish game since 2ed. When they changed over to 3ed and standardized movement and removed most of the individual model level customization the whole nature of the game changed. Battles became larger overnight.

If flyers were what put you off the game in the changeover from 5ed to 6ed then the problem is probably not the scale of the game.
I see what your saying, but I guess our perspectives differ over the term 'skirmish' so let me rephrase. Any engagement involving a few tanks and less than 100 guys a side is a minor encounter. If you call in the air support - you tip the balance and the dynamics and feel of the game change - at least they have for me. The size of a standard game of 40k does not support the inclusion of flyers in my view and has spoilt what was a very good rule set for minor engagements of armour and infantry.

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post #62 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 12:12 AM
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I can see the side arguing that this is a skirmish. In an all out war you might have hundreds, even thousands, of men charging into each other.

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post #63 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 01:55 AM
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And legions of tanks....


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post #64 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 03:37 AM
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You can always simply not play flyers in your games.
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post #65 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 12:29 PM
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You can always simply not play flyers in your games
That requires a level of understanding before hand and I know that most of the players in the club I go to have invested heavily into flyers and if I want a game I have to take that into account.
A few of the gamers refuse to play 6th so I can always play 5th but then when I have to play 6th I'm at a tactical disadvantage as I'm in the wrong mindset.
Flyers are here to stay mainly because they sell well and give the competative gamers with money to waste an advantage over less well off gamers, there are a few innefectual counters to flyer spam but for the most part 1 or 2 flyers can be handled without too much trouble depending on the army you choose after that the game gets so onesided it becomes relatively pointless.

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post #66 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 02:28 PM
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That requires a level of understanding before hand
This. In the same way that attempting to use FW in casual pickup games normally results in bad games, attempting to persuade someone who is pro/anti flyers of the opposite opinion and to allow/disallow flyers in a casual game often leads to... disagreements. Depending on who you're talking to that can be anything from "Well, my list has 3 flyers I can't take out, so let's play other people" to "EHRMEHGERD YU SUCK! I R QUITTING!!"

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1 or 2 flyers can be handled without too much trouble depending on the army you choose after that the game gets so onesided it becomes relatively pointless.
This. Once more creating a gulf between people who play casually and those who play competitively.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #67 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-11-13, 09:55 PM
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I can see the side arguing that this is a skirmish. In an all out war you might have hundreds, even thousands, of men charging into each other.
Yeah, in the end, it's still a platoon sized game, for the most part. That's still a skirmish, really.

But it's really not even the size of the armies, it's the battlespace. Fliers, even most helicopters (since you don't just hover in place while engaging ground targets with anti-air capability), would be covering far more than the average table size in the space of seconds.


But, in the end, it's just the implementation that has put me off to fliers. They aren't very well balanced into the rules, and were introduced to haphazardly that some armies have really good models, and others don't.

Oh, and the Space Marine fliers are just ridiculously awful looking.

If Marneus Calgar is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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