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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-06-13, 06:53 PM
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Seems like somebody missed their nap today. I get the frustration but not the unbecoming posts. The fact of the matter is, GW introduced a very exploitable unit type. I can see why some people hate them and others love them. Many veterans had their army running exactly like they wanted. Now they have to buy new models to combat the change. This in addition to other changes may have crippled their army altogether. Somebody droning on about adapting doesn't help. That said, Flyers are here to stay and it is up to each player how they deal with this. I enjoy them but use them fairly; never in small games or against new players or those I know dislike them. My lists can be competitive with or without. One solution to Flyers that I find overlooked is Random Objectives. Everyone seems to universally hate this rule. But it is the only thing that saved my opponent in my last The Scouring game. Sure it's frustrating to lose my Flyers because he rolled 3 Skyfire Nexus results. But that's the game and it's a free option to play with.

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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-06-13, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Squire View Post
Some good reasons for not liking flyers have been posted. I think I'll reserve judgement until the various factions have caught up when it comes to effective anti air, but I do think it's an interesting point that BS is taken out of the equation when trying to shoot down a flyer without skyfire. Maybe a -2 penalty to BS would have made more sense, since that would mean BS4 has a better chance to hit that BS2 and 3. Space Marines hitting a flyer on a 5+ doesn't seem so bad when the flyer is (presumably) flying low over then battlefield to shoot things

I just want a balanced game where specific units aren't way more effective than others, and there's no such thing as auto include units beyond basic troops
I first thought of something like this as well when I first read the rules for shooting at fliers but now I would rather have a few options that could target fliers leaving anything else useless. Like Interceptor would be able to fire at fliers with reduced BS and Skyfire at whole BS. Then make it quite common but it would take away the chance of boys with sluggas downing a Crimson Hunter or the like.

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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-06-13, 09:57 PM
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There's also a Necron themed one, that is available:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/cyborg-defense-line

Oh and a Chaos one:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/fortif...s-defense-line
They aren't GW made though and as such a lot of people will NOT touch them. Which is a pity.
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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-06-13, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post
There's also a Necron themed one, that is available:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/cyborg-defense-line

Oh and a Chaos one:
http://www.lasercutcard.co.za/fortif...s-defense-line
Another thing that was passed around a while ago were these excellent resin substitutes.

http://www.mrdandy.com/wargamma-linked-barricades/

Orks



Eldar



Chaos



Tau



Necron



Tyranid



EDIT: The pictures won't show for some reason. Just right click the broken picture icon and select 'Open in new tab' to see them

Last edited by Ddraig Cymry; 08-06-13 at 10:53 PM.
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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 12:17 AM
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I don't hate flyers, I hate flyer spam, At this stage of the game a fair few armies have little effective antiflyer firepower even the new books have little in the way of a hard counter other than the already mentioned substandard new releases.
I recently faced Necrons, a difficult match up at the best of times made even harder when my opponent starts pulling out flyers like rhino's in a mobile marine army all full of warriors that can teleport with hardly any detrimental effect, needless to say the game was over quickly. The anti air I had could never even compete and has made 40k into a game more like yugioh where the person that spends the most usually wins which is my biggest problem with GW new buisness model as a whole rather than just hating fliers.

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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 12:29 AM
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Here I am running five flyers in a 2000 point list... I feel like such a cunt right now.

In response to Stella complaining about spending money to counter flyers. People have to spend money on the flyers in the first place and when you first start you had to buy your army, yeah? When people are buying brand new armies in future, flyers will just be another one of those things to take into account when buying models. Imagine if tanks were never around and then one day: BAM! Tanks.

"Why should I have to spend money on new models which can counter tanks!? My bolters should be able to do that!"

No. Fuck that. On top of the plain fact that new aspects of the game means spending more money, flyers or not, GW is a business which wants to encourage purchasing new things. Why would they listen to the business model which states "Release new stuff which can be countered by everything which nobody will want to buy and nobody will need to purchase new stuff to counter"? Terrible business model in my eyes.

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"Look they got a-OH MY GOD I'M ON FIRE FOR THE LOVE OF NAKED SANTA IT HURTS!"
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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 12:45 AM
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In addition, consider that the flight paths of these flyers might not be exactly the same as is represented in game but rather a far simpler, yet close enough, system to keep the game flow fairly smooth. You need a bit of imagination. Also, who's to say that pilots can't pull of trick maneuvers in their aeroplanes? Back flips, tight curves, barrel rolls and the likes?

I drew a shitty little picture in paint to somewhat illustrate my point. The red lines are 'in-game' flight paths, when orange is the flight path it really represents which surely anybody with a little bit of imagination can picture. These planes are low-flying air-to-ground war vehicles. They're not gonna casually take a leisure glide over the battle field and just sight-see. They'll be weaving and out of the carnage of fire coming from the ground, whether that's stray shots, massed small-arms fire or concentrate AA batteries. Flyers glide lower than some of the GW building tops (Like the Fortress of Redemption).


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"Look they got a-OH MY GOD I'M ON FIRE FOR THE LOVE OF NAKED SANTA IT HURTS!"
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 02:21 PM
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"Why should I have to spend money on new models which can counter tanks!? My bolters should be able to do that!"
Well not bolters, but standard issue missile launcher can be put to good use.
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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DaiKaiju View Post
Well not bolters, but standard issue missile launcher can be put to good use.
Maybe with the new Space Marine codex we'll see the missile launchers being far more effective against flyers.

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"Look they got a-OH MY GOD I'M ON FIRE FOR THE LOVE OF NAKED SANTA IT HURTS!"
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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-07-13, 05:17 PM
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Maybe with the new Space Marine codex we'll see the missile launchers being far more effective against flyers.
Not unless they radically rethink Flakk. As in, make them cost nothing (all MLs have them for free) and then errata every other codex to be able to do the same.

As it stands, you'll be paying 180pts per Dev squad with Flakks (10pts more than a Heldrake) and you only average a single pen/glance against AV12 if they choose not to jink or have an invul, in which case you average 0.66 glances/pens per squad shooting at them.

And that's shite.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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