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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-21-13, 09:18 PM
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Successful overwatch is simply a matter of ensuring that you pack as many high powered weapons into the squad as possible.

For instance, a guy whose battle reps I keep track of runs MechVet squads with 3 melta guns, 1 plasma pistol sarge, and a lascannon or autocannon. That's such a ridiculous density of firepower that he can afford to miss with most of it and still affect charges.

In the case of CSM, you simply don't have an unit that fulfills the roles of TSons and is able to pack enough firepower to make the difference in overwatch. There are plenty of other reasons that TSons aren't the best, but overwatch isn't a huge deal for them.

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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Yup, that sounds about right. The only faction who are a bigger bunch of backstabbers than the Imperium are the Eldar (and this is debatable as the Eldar only stab OTHER factions in the back).
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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-21-13, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Nave Senrag View Post
For instance, a guy whose battle reps I keep track of runs MechVet squads with 3 melta guns, 1 plasma pistol sarge, and a lascannon or autocannon. That's such a ridiculous density of firepower that he can afford to miss with most of it and still affect charges.
Even assuming that whicheve shot of this selection is able to auto kill whatever it hits, you're still only averaging a single casualty here. Unless the charger has set it so that his commander is in the front or his front model will be the only one who makes it into charge range it's still not going to deter your average space marine assault squad, ork mob or csm unit, heck the sarge has as much chance of cooking himself with the plasma as he does of hitting the enemy...it's just not enough damage to be considered game changing unless you can spam the numbers you need.

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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-21-13, 10:22 PM
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Overwatch is really not a game changer, it just makes you think twice about long charges, I ran it though the combat calculator as my bro was getting depressed at the 'unchargable' tau
One sqaud of fire warriors kills 0.887 of a space marine in overwatch! That's not going break a game anytime soon!
And with supporting fire, say you get shot by 3 squads, that's still not even 2.5 guys down, from 3 squads!
If your scared of overwatch, think what they'll do normally and then get scared

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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-21-13, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravner298 View Post
Thousand sons make up for it with double tap+charging. It causes more damage than double tap, into overwatch on your opponents turn.
Absolutely.

I am actually beginning to think that people that claim Thousand Sons are bad units are either not very good players or are just reading that they are bad online and recycling the monologue without actually even bothering to test it out for themselves.

Honestly, although I have previously stated that they are difficult to use, they are not that difficult after some practice. So I am beginning to question whether people are actually bothering to playtest for themselves, or are just agreeing with what they read online without bothering to question it. Or it could just be that they are not using the right units to synergise with them. It's a shame because they look great, have the best fluff in 40k and most importantly are fun, especially with Ahriman's telepathy shenanigans...

Of course, if you are looking for the absolute best of the best units and only care about super-competitive game play and winning tournies (fair play to you if you do), there are probably better units. For everything else there's multi-pass.
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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
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I am actually beginning to think that people that claim Thousand Sons are bad units are either not very good players or are just reading that they are bad online and recycling the monologue without actually even bothering to test it out for themselves.
I am pretty sure that is the case. I have played against a number of 1k son users in my area and they are a tough unit that doesn't really fear some of the attacks that other MEQ shy away from.

(Trying to shift a 20 man blob of 1k off an objective will take far more firepower than you can afford to waste on the unit)

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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimzagGorwazza View Post
Even assuming that whicheve shot of this selection is able to auto kill whatever it hits, you're still only averaging a single casualty here. Unless the charger has set it so that his commander is in the front or his front model will be the only one who makes it into charge range it's still not going to deter your average space marine assault squad, ork mob or csm unit, heck the sarge has as much chance of cooking himself with the plasma as he does of hitting the enemy...it's just not enough damage to be considered game changing unless you can spam the numbers you need.
Overwatch is important for two reasons: doing pre-assault damage to an enemy squad to weaken it for combat and doing pre-assault damage to an enemy squad to deny a charge.

With that many high power shots, you'll average about a kill every overwatch and the value of doing better than average increases much more rapidly than the consequences of doing worse than average.

With random charge distances, charges can be divided into two groups. Important charges, where the assaulting player has moved to close range to mitigate the affects of chance. And Hail Mary charges where the chances of making it aren't good, but the benefits of trying make it an option.

In the case of the first, it is more important to do damage than to deny a charge, but against termies it can deny a charge even at close distances.

In the case of the second, you're likely taking a free shooting round at the enemy unit and if they're lucky with the dice your overwatch might be the difference between base contact and one inch outside of it.

I'm not saying overwatch will ever be gamechanging. All I'm saying is that if you pack enough firepower density into a squad it can be successful in enhancing a unit's combat effectiveness and even preventing the unit from being destroyed in combat.

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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Yup, that sounds about right. The only faction who are a bigger bunch of backstabbers than the Imperium are the Eldar (and this is debatable as the Eldar only stab OTHER factions in the back).
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 11:09 AM
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In the case of the first, it is more important to do damage than to deny a charge, but against termies it can deny a charge even at close distances.
Why is that?
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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Wow. I never expected such an intense debate out of all of this. Impressive. It's given me alot to think about. As I said, it wont discourage me from playing my army, as I have way too many black-blue-and-gold painted marines to start over... Can't afford to scrap the army. It's just a tactic I'll need to ponder.

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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 01:56 PM
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Overwatch can be a pain for some armies and not others. Overwatch use dby a big ork mob with shootas is actually a good deal of firepower. Even 20 shoots boys can dish a heavy number of strength 4 hits. This doesn't tend to hurt much against MEQ, but I have stopped charges by taking out the first couple of marines.

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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-22-13, 05:07 PM
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Marines and termies don't care much for being overwatched, but hordes could lose quite a few men/aliens/hideous space monsters/bugs

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