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post #621 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
I do so enjoy it when people ignore my replies to things so let me start by replying to your previous post again:
I actually did reply to that, I forgot to reply to your next one though (which I do in this post).
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...st1378095.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochi View Post
Winterous! Talk to me about Asurmen!

(My codex won't arrive till Monday)
He's not that bad actually, D3 Warlord Traits, 4+ invuln, and hits at S5 with his AP2 Dire Sword.
Around 200 points I think, maybe a bit more.


Ok, on to the long reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
Okay, based on the actual rules: Psychic Powers are rolled for -before- you deploy. Warlord traits are rolled for before the deployment as well. The attachement only has to be done before you roll for Warlord traits. So you could: roll for psychic powers, attach them, roll for Warlord traits then deploy. That is unless GW FAQs it.
It's right near the back of the book, in the turn summary; Warlord Traits are rolled before generating Powers, a real kick in the nuts, but possibly not intended (that Warlocks are hurt by that I mean).

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
From my understanding of the fluff and Exarch is just someone who is lost on the path and is more dedicated to that path than your normal Aspect Warrior. I don't see a problem with this change becuase of this.
My understanding is that yes, they are trapped on that path, they're obsessed with it and can't return to normal life; and in the role of an Exarch they carry on the tradition of teaching those who would seek to walk the path of the warrior.
They become the leader of the shrine, the sensei, so to speak.

So as a teacher, it makes sense that their presence would provide benefits to the others, as he imparts the wisdom of his experience and dedication.

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
You're not paying for the Sword, you're paying for the 5++ Invunerable Save that forces a blind test on all unengaged units in 6" of the Wraithknight.
I hardly think that's worth 10 points AND your super awesome tank demolishers.

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
No they shouldn't. They are the purest representation of that individual Aspect. Aspects (outside of Dire Avengers) has particular battle rolls that go beyond "hold this point". It actually violates the concept of Aspects more to make them Troop Choices when you take a particular Phoenix Lord. People only look at it from the numbers standpoint however and complain that they can't do that thing that they really shouldn't' be able to to do anyways.
That's a good point.
However, as the founder of the Aspect Path, they should definitely have group buffs to provide to warriors of that Aspect; they are the embodiment of the Aspect, surely they can help out the newbies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
They get it by an improved Deny the Witch, just like almost everyone else does (Space Wolves are going to HATE their update btw if you consider that they did this to the Runes).
They don't get improved Deny though, only Runes of Warding does that, once per game.
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post #622 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 03:56 PM
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IMO Eldar play much differently than the other armies in 40k, not only in fluff by actually on the table top as well. It is important for Eldar to be able to have superior deployment, speed and maneuverability, then to rely on their specialized units to complete certain roles, but they also need the support of other units to do this. These are the keys to playing well with Eldar.



Things which have been taken from us in 6th, however looks like we will get some of these back:


I.e. Placing fire dragons in a tank then moving straight at a target to jump out and destroy it, will get them killed as soon as you pull this move. *granted they will take out that armour of elite squad in the process.


However, if you infiltrate some scorpions close to that key squad or armour, then you send in the tank with dragons and an attacked farseer (say with guide or fortune, or combos). Then you pop them out and buff them with the Farseer shoot away, and then use the scorpions to clean up the mess that would otherwise go straight after the dragons, so they can hop back into their transport and move to another supporting position. (this is an example of how Eldar need to be supported by each other)


So if we take a look at some of the new rules, we can see how this tactic has gotten better:
· Improved Sv on the dragons
· Improved shuriken pistols on the scorpions
· Stealth on the scorpions
· Improved holofield on a tank (combined with jink)
· Battletrance


There may be more, which I could find with the dex as well. Considering that IMO and experience in 6th, it has turned more into infantry heavy armies who rely much more heavily on shooting than anything else “these type” of changes will help us very much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnster View Post
I think if you start comparing Eldar to marines they will always look worse, the same way daemons looked worse but are actually a very playable army

Eldar tactics are more than just stand and shoot, then rely on Power Armour across the board to get us out of jams.



A lot of what I am hearing about the new rules on here and stuff don't seem all that bad to me, there are 2 new rules alone that will make our Eldar Armies instantly better and that is the change to Shruiken Weapons (ap 2 on wound rolls of 6 will hurt everything) and being able to "run then shoot" (or is it "shoot then run") will increase our speed big time, let us close a little more ground or put that needed few extra inches between our enemy. Also, improved Ballistic Skill on guardians helps as well. Throw in the fact that we have some new units/IC/Flyer/Physic Powers/Our own warload trains are all improvements.


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Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
Well if that's the case then they failed horribly at that, too.
Most of the Exarch powers are a waste of points, there's only a few good ones, like Fast Shot and Disarm, but in only a few instances do these even justify the purchase of the Exarch in the first place..

However, I’m not sure what I think of the Exarch changes, I feel that they should be able to improve the squad as a whole and I do believe that it is in their fluff to do so. I.e. in the “Path of the warrior” a normal Eldar artist choose to follow the path of the scorpion before getting so lost down it that he became an Exarch then eventually was even rebirthed into the Phoenix Lord in the heat of battle. Still, throughout the book as he progressed along the path with training and in actually battles he/squad were all influenced and improved by their Exarch, so I guess this is where my ideas of the Exarch improving the squad come from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scscofield View Post
Rune priests will be nerfed when it comes around to thier dex being updated. GW is working hard to make it where you can not auto deny psykers. They want all those big flashy spells going off.
With regard to the whole PP thing, all then new 6th dexs have their own PP that are mostly better than the ones in the BRB, and now Eldar are same field, so will all the new dexs coming out hopefully. We all have to roll to get the powers so we may not be able to select the ones we want, but neither can any new dex out there. (this is just an evolution Change to 6th so..)
Similarly, thus far in all the games I have played in 6th I have yet to get a Warloard trait that was actually useful to me at all (RBR ones are not that good for Eldar IMO, the few that are can only be obtained through pure luck), so this was a new aspect of the game that didn’t help our army much, but now we have our own!
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post #623 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djinn24 View Post
Rumor floating around that Mat Ward wrote the fluff in the Iyanden supplement.

*puts on fire suit*


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post #624 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 04:02 PM
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Pre Ordered my Codex as soon as I could, and it has not arrived one sad, sad Eldar Player here, looks like I will have to wait until Monday now

Everyone who has a Codex enjoy and I hope to be joining you all soon lol

As for people crying my Army is broken and it no longer works take a deep breath and a step back, you have only just gotten it and not had time to take everything in yet

Why is it that when ever I see someone complain about a new codex I think of Kevin and Perry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUfU1arc0Es

Remember every new Codex this edition has had the same Knee Jerk reaction and as the week went on those same people have come round as they have seen things that they didn't originally notice the first time round, you need time to process what you read, and look at how things fit together

If after you have had time to truly take in the Codex and still can't see away to win as the new updates are Soooooo unfair I would hazed a guess you are the type of gamer who has just one maybe two tactics and now that they don't work you don't know what to do

If that is the case then you really are playing the wrong army anyway lol

Anyway enough ranting, everyone who has the new Dex enjoy I hope to be joining your ranks this Monday (Can't believe it didn't arrive, but these things happen)

2013 Games W-/-L-/-D

Eldar 1-/-0-/-0

Orks 2-/-0-/-0

Last edited by stephen.w.langdon; 06-01-13 at 04:19 PM.
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post #625 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
I actually did reply to that, I forgot to reply to your next one though (which I do in this post).
https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...st1378095.html
I apologize, so you did. I honestly forgot because you began repeating your complaints.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
It's right near the back of the book, in the turn summary; Warlord Traits are rolled before generating Powers, a real kick in the nuts, but possibly not intended (that Warlocks are hurt by that I mean).
Yeah, I posted an edit about that in the quoted post. I don't see this being too much of an issue anyways, because if you're running a Seer Council then it doesn't matter, they're all one unit. If you're only bringing one or two of them to support your Guardians on an Objective then it's less of an issue because it's random anyways. Adapt around the powers. They're still all useful and can add a new dimension to the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
My understanding is that yes, they are trapped on that path, they're obsessed with it and can't return to normal life; and in the role of an Exarch they carry on the tradition of teaching those who would seek to walk the path of the warrior.
They become the leader of the shrine, the sensei, so to speak.
So what's the problem then? They're stuck on their path, their obviously teaching their students their art, and they're better for the points now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
So as a teacher, it makes sense that their presence would provide benefits to the others, as he imparts the wisdom of his experience and dedication.
See, that's debatable. Space Marine Sergeants don't give bonuses to their unit, Sister of Battle Superiors don't give bonuses to theirs and they're the ones training their subordinates. What happens in the background doesn't always have to be on the table.

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Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
I hardly think that's worth 10 points AND your super awesome tank demolishers.
You still get your shoulder guns this way though, so you could take Starcannons to balance it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
That's a good point.
However, as the founder of the Aspect Path, they should definitely have group buffs to provide to warriors of that Aspect; they are the embodiment of the Aspect, surely they can help out the newbies.
I don't think they've ever had bonuses to their respective Aspects though. It'd be interesting, but they haven't done it before, and they haven't done it yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
They don't get improved Deny though, only Runes of Warding does that, once per game.
You might need to go read how Deny the Witch works. Those Guardian units? The ones you can stick Warlocks in? They get a bonus because he's a Psyker. Infact, you have the ability to put psykers almost everywhere in your army, hence my talking about improved Psychic Defense. It's not through Runes, but rather through actual Psykers doing the work.

Last edited by Zion; 06-01-13 at 04:07 PM.
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post #626 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
Yeah, I posted an edit about that in the quoted post. I don't see this being too much of an issue anyways, because if you're running a Seer Council then it doesn't matter, they're all one unit. If you're only bringing one or two of them to support your Guardians on an Objective then it's less of an issue because it's random anyways. Adapt around the powers. They're still all useful and can add a new dimension to the game.
The thing is though, that outside of a Council, most of their powers won't ever see much good use; Storm Guardians would be viable if you have a good chance of giving them a Warlock with the Strength power, but since it's completely random they're still pretty much useless.
I do however think that this one may be unintentional, as it's a pretty specific part of the rulebook, and that alone prevents it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
You still get your shoulder guns this way though, so you could take Starcannons to balance it out.
Starcannon still aren't worth it, they need to be 3 shots or they will continue to be garbage; a Shuriken Cannon performs almost as well as a Starcannon (ignoring the range) when you assume that the target unit has a 5+ Cover Save, for cheaper, and it's also better against other things.

And yes you still have the shoulder guns, but they keep adding to the points; you end up paying 50 points for that 5+ invuln if you buy Scatter Lasers, I'd prefer to just keep the D-Lances.

*edit*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
You might need to go read how Deny the Witch works. Those Guardian units? The ones you can stick Warlocks in? They get a bonus because he's a Psyker. Infact, you have the ability to put psykers almost everywhere in your army, hence my talking about improved Psychic Defense. It's not through Runes, but rather through actual Psykers doing the work.
I thought you were referring to an actual improvement; you can't attach Warlocks to Wraithguard, or any of the Aspect Warriors; Wraithguard are pretty much a straight upgrade to Fire Dragons, and most of your army's effectiveness is going to be from Warp Spiders (who are hands down the best unit in the codex).

Last edited by Winterous; 06-01-13 at 04:30 PM.
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post #627 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
The thing is though, that outside of a Council, most of their powers won't ever see much good use; Storm Guardians would be viable if you have a good chance of giving them a Warlock with the Strength power, but since it's completely random they're still pretty much useless.
I do however think that this one may be unintentional, as it's a pretty specific part of the rulebook, and that alone prevents it.[/quote]
You could always write into GW and ask if you can do it in a different order. It might make the FAQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
Starcannon still aren't worth it, they need to be 3 shots or they will continue to be garbage; a Shuriken Cannon performs almost as well as a Starcannon (ignoring the range) when you assume that the target unit has a 5+ Cover Save, for cheaper, and it's also better against other things.
I'd argue it's harder to get cover from something 8" off the ground, but yes, the Starcannon is more expensive than it should be for what it is. I don't think that we should just write off options before trying them though. The should weapons really do seem like they're made for when you take the Glaive, or the Suncannon.

Oddly enough I've heard a lot of bitching on other parts of the internet that the twin Heavy Wraithcannons aren't a good option because you don't have an invulnerable save and the Wraithknight will just go down too fast. It's all in the eye of the beholder it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
And yes you still have the shoulder guns, but they keep adding to the points; you end up paying 50 points for that 5+ invuln if you buy Scatter Lasers, I'd prefer to just keep the D-Lances.
Everything costs points. You want to bring a Knight class Titan into the game you got to be willing to spend some points on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
*edit*
I thought you were referring to an actual improvement; you can't attach Warlocks to Wraithguard, or any of the Aspect Warriors; Wraithguard are pretty much a straight upgrade to Fire Dragons, and most of your army's effectiveness is going to be from Warp Spiders (who are hands down the best unit in the codex).
Farseer and Spiritseer can attach to those other units. This is how 6th is handling psychic powers now. Wraithguard still have the same range and speed limitations (not to mention unit size limitations, especially if you want a Wave Serpent). Fire Dragons still have their place (after all they'll break a Land Raider more effectively than relying on 6's from the Wraithguard), but it's toned down a bit. There are more options outside just Fire Dragons to handle your anti-tank now and that's good.
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post #628 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
You could always write into GW and ask if you can do it in a different order. It might make the FAQ.
I don't truly understand what method of contacting GW staff will actually accomplish a damn thing, and I have absolutely no faith in them updating the rules sensibly.

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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
Fire Dragons still have their place (after all they'll break a Land Raider more effectively than relying on 6's from the Wraithguard), but it's toned down a bit.
Wraithcannon are S10 now, man. You get to shoot from 12" away with similar effectiveness to Meltas at 6".
Also you're tough.
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post #629 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
I don't truly understand what method of contacting GW staff will actually accomplish a damn thing, and I have absolutely no faith in them updating the rules sensibly.
If you don't want to try to correct the problem then why complain about it? At least emailing [email protected] would be an attempt at actually doing something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
Wraithcannon are S10 now, man. You get to shoot from 12" away with similar effectiveness to Meltas at 6".
Also you're tough.
Fire Dragons get the melta effect at 9" due to their guns having an 18" range.

Wraithcannons could screw up vehicles before. 3-4 to glance and 5-6 to pen. This change they have now makes them more reliable, and causes Instant Death against everything T5 and down, but they still have to get close to vehicles to do the damage. This was the thing that people said didn't make them good for anti-tank in the old book.
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post #630 of 643 (permalink) Old 06-01-13, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by stephen.w.langdon View Post
Pre Ordered my Codex as soon as I could, and it has not arrived one sad, sad Eldar Player here, looks like I will have to wait until Monday now

Everyone who has a Codex enjoy and I hope to be joining you all soon lol

Anyway enough ranting, everyone who has the new Dex enjoy I hope to be joining your ranks this Monday (Can't believe it didn't arrive, but these things happen)
I'm in your boat too mate so your not alone!
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