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post #31 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-13, 05:05 PM
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Exterminatus.

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post #32 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-13, 05:44 PM
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Or you could be a good sport and just admit you are wrong on almost every point you made. ;-)

Seriously, an army 40,000 years in advance to our own isn't going to lose.
Well they aren't 40,000 years in advance. They haven't done any technical breakthroughs according to the fluff in like 15,000 years...

While a mordern Earth would have stood no chance in the great crusade due to greater tech and numbers, an Imperial guard regiment is what on average, 60,000 men? The US alone has an active/reserve fighting strength of ~3 million men. Even the Siege of Vraks didn't enjoy that many men on the ground at any given point. While Earth would eventually succumb to superior technology, especially from space (They would just bombard the shit out of our major military installations) it wouldn't be like them sweeping us aside as some sort of feudal army.

What he said isn't terribly unreasonable, our tanks could according to the fluff out range the Leman Russ, and stand a reasonable chance of penetrating them, and same with our Jets. They easily out range thunderbolts and lightnings which as stated require line of sight to hit their targets. Our biggest issue would of course be titans and dealing with the larger tanks...we would have very little chance of knocking out even a baneblade with our current weapons.

We could at best bleed their manpower, but their super heavy vehicles would quickly overwhelm us and destroy our infantry in a short manner, and god help us should the space marines be involved. Space Wolves are probably the only chapter we could deal with since they eschew helmets.

This of course all subjective to opinions and preconceived notions of how Warhammer 40k technology actually works in the real world, and no one here knows...despite what they may think/say.



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post #33 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-13, 06:27 PM
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Ok, let's assume they don't vaporize the planet with exterminatus
let's assume they don't pour every guardsman in existance onto us
let's assume they don't drop 200+ terminators on us after using the officio assassinorum on our leaders
let's assume they don't whip out their entire armoured might on us or bombard us from space.

Let's look at weapons for instance:
Lasgun/boltgun - if a space marine model is about 1.3 inches high (estimate) and are supposed to be around 8ft tall, that's 2.4m. So if 1.3" is 2.4 meters, I measure that the standard imperial armament can fire somewhere between 50 - 70 meters (my maths isn't great), but each round that hits is pretty much guaranteed to put a man out of action if not kill outright.
We (in Britain at least) have standard rifles that are expected to be effective at between 400 - 600 meters, so we'd get in a lot of shots before they get there, but if we were up against space marines or terminators, we might as well not bother firing. Barring the officers' tendancy to not wear helmets, which would thus be targeted a lot.

Vs the guard, considering these range distances, we'd make mincemeat of a lot of them in a straight infantry fight, though their armour would protect them against our weapons, but our armour wouldn't stand a chance against lasfire, but, provided we killed the officers first etc. we could have them on the run. But once they pull out tanks, they could quite easily drown us in armour. You are forgetting quite how much weaponry the imperium can bring to bear. In addition, look at psykers, we have literally no defence against that. There are moments in the fluff where hundreds of thousands of tanks are produced in a matter of weeks and literally millions of guardsmen can die without setting back a single campaign, that is an acceptable loss for one battle at times. The force the imperium has at its desposal, without the highly trained, superhuman, bulletproof, grenade-launcher-machine-gun wielding monsters called space marines, would be enough to literally smother the whole of our defences.

However, looking at the rate at which the Imperium 'improves' its technology, if we waited 10-15 more millennia, we'd have more high-tech guns/tanks etc and they would have guardsman companies fighting over a stick with fire on it.


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post #34 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-13, 10:26 PM
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I think we'd crush the Imperium's military. Their infantry tactics are singularly terrible (they rely WAY too much on either static defense or overwhelming numbers at the cost of individual prowess aside from Stormtroopers).
So did the Russians. The Imperium have got bodies to spare.

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Laser weapons cauterize their own wounds. We don't use bullets because they're super cool, we use them because a hollowpoint round will blow a hole the size of a fist through a dude, and AP rounds will cause a great hole that'll bleed badly. A lasgun won't do that.
There's a calculation going around, where it assumes that megathules is a smeerp for Megajoules; a lasgun is a point and aim weapon, unaffected by gravity, coriolis, or wind (although air pressure and moisture could cause reduction in power slightly, but not so binary as it is today). Anyway, it works out that assuming all those bits of energy get to the target (assuming a bit is lost to the environment through light and imperfect conditious), that all the energy imparted would be the equivalent of a 2 ton truck travelling at 40mph hitting you. Being hit with a bullet is like being punched, really, really, really hard. Now, even though that energy is heat, rather than kinetic, it's going to more than "cauterize", it's going to turn your insides to ash. And for comparison, I don't think that Mike Tyson imparts the same force as a 2tonner travelling at 40mile and hour. It's unclear whether or not the lasrifle even "kicks" for rapid accurate placement of follow up shots.

If someone is doped up, on khat, weed, morphine, or just pure adrenaline, a 5.56 will go through. Leave a hole in them, but with body armour, there's no explosive release which causes them holes. Body armour doesn't "stop", it just keeps your guts intact. Multiple "impacts" of a lasrifle is going to be far easier to get through the body armour as well, weakening the glue which holds the kevlar layers together, and just cracking the ceramics under the immense heat.

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Their air force is big, bulky, and relies on visual range to fight. The last time our jet fighters NEEDED visual range to engage the enemy was Vietnam.
Something that has annoyed me slightly, but I must admit as an Infantryman myself, Pilots whether they be Helicopter or Fast Air all sound a little mary-sue when I speak to them, and possibly the same applies to 40K writers. On the other hand, perhaps with Alien technology, the guard equipment has been determined to account for the need to dogfight or be in visual range. I need to read Double Eagle again to double check it, but there might be more stuff in there. Anyhow, I'm fairly confident that in the case of special forces units, like Storm Troopers, or Elysian D-99, that they'd have the technology specialising in countering their own forces with equipment not necessarily available to normal troops.

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Their armor is hugely ineffective- the Leman Russ' side skirts have an angle of approximately 0 degrees. That means whatever armor they have on it, the Leopard II or Merkeva's will be vastly superior thanks to the angles of the plates. The battle cannon is more of an artillery weapon than a proper tank killer.
We are unable to judge the comparisons. Chobham armour is not made publicly available, and according to source, Ceramite is handwavium composite. As for usage of weapons, IA1 has rules to give LRBT's AT rounds, much like prior to the 5th edition codex update, Vanquishers could have both AT and HE without having to purchase Beastkiller rounds. However, regardless of whatever armour we have effective, I sincerely doubt it can keep up with the kinetic force of Ordnance weapons, Lascannon's, or Melta.

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The Imperial Guard only exists to soak up the damage while the Astartes or elite units move into position- without those elements, say battalion to battalion in the middle of Kentucky, they'd get wasted.
Fallacy. While this is a belief commonly held, it's not a correct one. What happens when elite units are not available? I sincerely doubt that a middle of Kentucky "Somme" would occur, and especially while we do not control the high ground, and long with it's Eyes in the Sky, we wouldn't stand a chance.

Not to mention that the Guard would not be deployed in such a location without being able to guarantee mass landings (As on Vraks), they'd likely hit Capitals and Major Centres. It's all well and good in saying "Yeah, 5th fleet is awesome", but when the 5th fleet is tucked away in the Gulf, it's no good when DC is getting buttfucked by a Basilisk.

Talking of Basilisks, never understood why it's so less powerful than a 155mm. Even the AS90's are better than that. 23mm larger round, and the only stated distance is 15km (although it could be larger due to a bigger charge and better elevation, and the figure might well have been explorative). The AS90 can hit 25km, even up to 80km but the project was terminated according to wiki, due to supply issues.



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post #35 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-27-13, 10:48 PM
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40k was written by people with a fairly basic understanding of physics and science ,a nd is about a universe that makes about as much sense as a round peg fitting in a square hole. I know people want to compare the two, but its pointless as one system is made up of bullshit, and the other is restricted to the real world laws of physics. Hell half of the shit that allows us to compare the two has come out of later rewrites and desperate attempts by fans to rationalize the often conflicting fictional accounts of how 40k weapons and armor work (Most of the time leading to assumptions that actually completely go against how things are depicted in the fluff).

Now if we where comparing a similar fictional setting or even stuff within the same universe we could apply our understanding of physics and what not on more or less equal terms, but as it is this threads goal is almost incoherent. Its like asking whats stronger Mike Tyson or the hulk. Well obviously the hulk but that's because he is comprised of fictional bull shit that can't possibly exist. For example in real life the technology in a guardsman's las rifle would be far better used to power death machines, or small buildings as the difference between the stubber and a las rifle is simply a matter of maintenance, and realistically the production difficulties in making such a device and the vast amount of rare material used to make such a advanced laser weapon would make it a incredibly rare weapon. They talk about how easy they are to built and maintain but that is fucking retarded as its a simple fact that the more advanced something is the more complicated it becomes and the more impossible it is to fix when it breaks.


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post #36 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
For example in real life the technology in a guardsman's las rifle would be far better used to power death machines, or small buildings as the difference between the stubber and a las rifle is simply a matter of maintenance, and realistically the production difficulties in making such a device and the vast amount of rare material used to make such a advanced laser weapon would make it a incredibly rare weapon. They talk about how easy they are to built and maintain but that is fucking retarded as its a simple fact that the more advanced something is the more complicated it becomes and the more impossible it is to fix when it breaks.
Obviously the technology we have now to produce such things cannot be compared to fictional technology 38,000 years in the future.

40,000 years ago man was tying bits of flint to a stick to hunt. They could not possibly have conceived the complexity of say a modern hunting rifle, which by today’s standard is pretty basic technology.

But you are right these comparisons can be stupid as we have no idea how these things would work, if at all, in the real world. But none the less there is a still a good nerdy discussion to be had about it.

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post #37 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 06:20 PM
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I'll go ahead right on back to the point that whatever the merits of the lasgun, it doesn't do "bleeding out". All you can hope for with a lasgun is structural damage, and humans are fairly durable when it comes to just flat out tissue damage. Autoguns might be more useful against conventional militaries today.
Have you ever heard of the term full metal jacket? Let me explain a FMJ bullet does not expand it is designed to put a small hole in a target. Yeah that's what military rounds are. So in terms of differences a las round and a FMJ round are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the las rifle has more endurance. can recharge power packs from any heat source. Accuracy based on the user.

Vs the AK 47. accuracy is based on how many bullets you fire at the target and is limited on ammo.

Finally The IG have the advantage over us. They would view us as nothing more than PDF whereas they can strike anywhere on the planet.

It takes days to get enough troops to a location. the IG can get men and equipment to any location within hours.

Even if we could calculate where they were landing they could change their site during flight making us waste resources.
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post #38 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 08:26 PM
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Obviously the technology we have now to produce such things cannot be compared to fictional technology 38,000 years in the future.

40,000 years ago man was tying bits of flint to a stick to hunt. They could not possibly have conceived the complexity of say a modern hunting rifle, which by today’s standard is pretty basic technology.

But you are right these comparisons can be stupid as we have no idea how these things would work, if at all, in the real world. But none the less there is a still a good nerdy discussion to be had about it.
Yah don't mind me I'm a bit of a kill joy. I know that entire forums exist to make these kinds of caparisons, and pointing out the absurdity of the idea will do little to dis-wade people form doing so in the future. Hell marvel comics has made a number of series entirely based around the concept so its obviously something fans do as a knee jerk reaction.


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post #39 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 09:24 PM
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Have you ever heard of the term full metal jacket? Let me explain a FMJ bullet does not expand it is designed to put a small hole in a target. Yeah that's what military rounds are. So in terms of differences a las round and a FMJ round are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the las rifle has more endurance. can recharge power packs from any heat source. Accuracy based on the user.

Vs the AK 47. accuracy is based on how many bullets you fire at the target and is limited on ammo.

Excepting the AK, the most common military rifle is the M16 (or it's variants), and the rounds they shoot are designed to bounce around inside a persons body causing massive bleeding and incapacitation

Finally The IG have the advantage over us. They would view us as nothing more than PDF whereas they can strike anywhere on the planet.

It takes days to get enough troops to a location. the IG can get men and equipment to any location within hours.

It takes days to weeks for the Imperial Guard to get any sort of sufficient force on the ground, not hours. The Space Marines are the only ones able to achieve that sort of efficiency.

Even if we could calculate where they were landing they could change their site during flight making us waste resources.

Except nothing is ever done quickly with the Imperial Guard. If they must choose another landing zone it's a massive undertaking to do all the necessary calculations from their "logic engines"
Sorry, but no.



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post #40 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-28-13, 10:46 PM
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ok, the thing that you guys seem to forget is that the imperium has billions of worlds. the combined manpower from these worlds would obliterate our military. we would run out of bullets before they run out of bodies.

Anyway reasonably small groups of the imperiums military (compared to the whole collective) win wars against Chaos marines, eldar, tau etc. who are much more advanced than we are in every sense. i think they can handle themselves

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