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post #21 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Oh yeah, I'm not saying GW is employed by dicks. Money is the main interest, sure, but they're not all jackasses like the guy that kicked me out of the store. It's also not the only time or GW store that I have been treated off hand like that. Just more of my specific reason for going to other places to get my hobby supplies.
Hate to say it but it is there job to kick you out: you really shouldn't be discussing second hand sales or competing personal projects in store (remember that GW do sell boards... albeit incredibly over-expensive pieces of shit). Its also slightly dodgy legal ground if you start selling on GW property and they know about it...
In the store I used to work at we took the slightly more relaxed line that people could discuss trades (as long as it wasn't too obvious and certainly not in ear shot of non-regulars) so long as no actual exchange of either money or goods happened in shop: a big step down from the jackass manager who was there when I started collecting who would kick you out for even mentioning eBay (in any context).

As for the prices... yeah, its getting ridiculous. Made worse for me as I left the company about 3 years ago so lost staff discount just before all these price rises started hitting. Collection wise it means I'm much more willing to troll eBay waiting for good deals then just dropping down to my local store as I might previously have done: about the only thing I normally buy in store now is Black Library stuff and the occasional army book (everyone loves a shiny new codex).
When I started my latest army (imperial guard) I went tallarn for a couple of reasons: I decided not to spend my money on new GW kits that I did not think were value for money and instead I have a metal army which I can paint strip at will and will keep its second hand value (meaning if I sell it I'll not make much of a loss).

More of a pain is that the price rises have pushed a lot of people at my local gaming club away from GW: when you can have enough Dystopian Wars models for a good game for £50 why would you spend £250 at GW. Now dwars and flamers are just taking over: there's probably even as much epic played now as fatasy. This is one of many reasons why I'm looking to get rid of quite a bit of my GW stuff.

Equally annoying is that my local store is becoming less and less profitable, so GW keep cutting things: first was its gaming night, then it shut tuesday and wednesday. The store is almost always empty now as regulars have less and less reason to go in, meaning the atmosphere has suffered, hurting sales: I used to drop by when I was unemployed and there were always a few people around so I could either sit and paint in good company or grab a game or two... nowadays I don't bother taking models in unless I've arranged a game with someone.

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post #22 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 11:04 AM
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i started playing warhammer back in 1987 and it was the fantasy game more then, i started painting a year or two later but stopped when time, life and other things prevented me from doing it. Although i have always got the books when they came out, i have taken up painting again. I enjoy it although on a limited budget i do treat myself once a month to new figures. if you enjoy something dont let anything else take it away from you,.
unfortunatly in todays market prices will rise and we will have to pay for our hobby but good luck with whatever you do
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post #23 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 11:07 AM
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Nice thread, and it echoes my quite possible departure in the near future. I'm not selling my crap or anything, but if the Tau codex comes out with a major departure in fluff and rules and the models suck as much as the Chaos and Dark Angels ones did then yeah, all my future money lies on other game systems.

Me and my local group have been debating making a 2nd/5th/6th edition hybrid rule set and tweaking codices to basically reinvent the game where we feel it should be, and liberating ourselves from the oppressive hand of GW's money printing scheme.

Prices skyrocket because the very foundation of Games Workshop is that idiotic local store concept, the bufoons simply refuse to accept the internet is here and that people who are 3000 kilometres from the nearest store shouldn't be subsidizing their drapery and unnecessary staff.

But yeah, good luck with PP, they know where it's at. Balance, prices, free downloadable rules and altogether a much more in-sync-with-reality strategy. That company is going to flourish now that GW is taking turns fanraping each and every established army fanbase (except Spess Muhreens of course)

I even think PP's minis are more well made, even if the art direction is a little bit niche. It definitely grows on you.

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post #24 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 12:54 PM
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I remember when a Rhino cost $25 and a Land Raider was $45. True, the MSRP has gone up drastically, but you can still find reasonable prices on Ebay. GW may have a cutthroat corporate mentality, but 40K remains a quality game, filled with appealing models, populating an intriguing universe. I'm willing to stay in. I guess it also helps that I'm a casual gamer. I don't feel the need to invest in armies built purely to win, spending hundreds of dollars in a Rhino Rush marine army, only to become irrelevant in a new edition. People like that, I have trouble feeling sorry for.

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post #25 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 01:50 PM
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I hate to say it, but I am in total agreement with the OP. The price rises, the "I'm Irish" tax and the crap new edition have driven me into the arms of a GW competitor for the first time in more than 20 years. I've been playing Flames of War since their 3rd edition came out early last year and find it a much better more balanced system than 6th Ed 40k.

I do find it sad that a hobby that has been a staple in my life for over 20 years has been ruined for me in the space of a year by the frankly absurd practices of GW. It's not just me either. The club I play with every Thursday has seen a massive fall off in the 40k hardcore gamers since 6th came out. This time last year there were close to 30 players taking part in a New Years league, this year, no one has shown any interest in playing at all.

I understand the whole "They're a business" argument, but one of the keys to any successful business is doing your best to hold on to your existing customers. From my experience they have done the opposite, driven away the most important customer, the veteran gamer who has a job and disposable income, as opposed to aiming at kids who might only get money or GW presents at Christmas or birthdays.

I will not be selling my beloved Space Wolves, but for the first time in decades they have been packed away in the top of my press while I paint/play with other companies models. I will eventually get back to them, but not any time soon.
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post #26 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
Hate to say it but it is their job to kick you out: you really shouldn't be discussing second hand sales or competing personal projects in store (remember that GW do sell boards... albeit incredibly over-expensive pieces of shit). Its also slightly dodgy legal ground if you start selling on GW property and they know about it...
In the store I used to work at we took the slightly more relaxed line that people could discuss trades (as long as it wasn't too obvious and certainly not in ear shot of non-regulars) so long as no actual exchange of either money or goods happened in shop: a big step down from the jackass manager who was there when I started collecting who would kick you out for even mentioning eBay (in any context).
Hey man, I get your point, I really do. But you even called your old store's manager a jackass. There's a point where you're doing your job and a point where you're being a dick. I had literally said "hey, are you Dave?" and he spoke up, from across the room over his customers, to kick us out of the store without asking anything about what we were doing. I was literally just there to meet him because he doesn't know the area and I suck at finding my way through malls.

Again, not something for people to dwell on. Just a personal thing I have noticed in the few different GW stores I have been to across the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) over the years I have been involved with the game that, in conjunction with rising prices, have made me personally shift my purchases to other stores as opposed to franchise GW locations. The stores seem to be too much sticklers for rules, so my hobby goes where it is happy...the point I was hoping would come across. Arcane definitely said it better, my apologies for my apparently blunt and nerve touching wording.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #27 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 02:38 PM
Grr! That is all.
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To the OP, could people just not play with an older set of rules? Or are the competitions put on only by GW that demand the newest iteration of rules?

I guess I really have no understanding about how the actual board game works. I always figured it was something like D&D. How hard would it be for someone to start a club that works off a later set of rules? I think maybe like a car club you know you have people that love Corvettes and the only club is in California and costs 500 to join so someone decides to make one in Nevada and it is only 50 for dues. Then as time goes and people hear about it it gets bigger and bigger until it can actually be recognized as an accredited car club with sponsors and such but still remaining true to its inception as being an affordable alternative.

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post #28 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 03:03 PM
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For me it is a matter of enjoyment vs cost. If you enjoy something a lot then sometimes you might accept the extra cost. Sometimes you don't. For me thus hobby is still vastly cheaper than any other hobby I would do.

On that note though I freely admit the majority of my 40k stuff came from EBay. It is how I keep the cost acceptable for myself. I also picked a set theme (Nordic Myth) to base all my armies off of. In terms of SM models all of them will be based off the SW kits. It will help cut cost more while looking cool in the long run. A bit of GS and a different paint scheme will make the same models vastly different and avoids the omg new model costs.

The can I have your stuff comment was my stock answer to goodbye threads. If you have reached the point that your doing a send off then most likely your not happy in the hobby or game or whatever the forum is based on. I have always felt that if something that is supposed to relax and entertain has stopped doing so you should quit. Otherwise it just sours the memories of it and leaves you bitter.

Good luck in you future hobbies and know that some if us will still be here if you decide to come back.


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post #29 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 04:38 PM
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I agree with Scscofield, the enjoyment of the game (for me) far outweigh the costs. Occasionally, there is something I want and I may pick it up but not usually for the high price that certain retail outlets feature it for. An LGS in my area does offer small percentage discounts for non-direct order items. EBay is a good place to purchase, but, if the cost of item + shipping = retail price then I may just pick it up at a retail location.

Wookie, I'm sad to hear the hobby was ruined for you. I've been in that state with Magic the Gathering, which is why I play 40K now, and understand where you're coming from. However, I hope you do not leave the boards entirely.
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post #30 of 92 (permalink) Old 01-06-13, 04:50 PM
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I'd like to begin by saying that most, if not all, of the OP's points were completely and totally valid. Yes, the prices are going crazy. Yes, GW are screwing over their customers. Yes, they change the rules all the time and they release new models just to make more money and blah blah blah...

However, as one keen-eyed commenter already pointed out, hobbies, sports, interests in general will always require you to pay through the nose to maintain them. Golf was the example given by wingazzwarlord, but there are numerous others.

For example: I take a shine to trading card games as well as 40k, and if you want to play at all competitively in TCG's you'll have to get used to the fact that the rules, the cards available, and the prices of those cards all change very regularly. In Magic: The Gathering (which I don't play, personally), they release a load of cards around autumn and say "Have at it!". If you like to play Standard format (possibly the most popular), you then have 12 months to collect all the cards you want/need, build the best deck you can (which, if you're ultra-competitive, could cost hundreds of pounds quite easily off the secondary market), and play the game. After those 12 months, all of those cards are then no longer Standard legal (meaning you can't use them), and the process repeats. Yet Magic: The Gathering remains one of the most popular trading card games ever.

Another example: Let's say you're an engine-head and you want to "soup-up" your new car. You want the best stereo you can get, you want to change the paint job, you want decals, you want neon lighting under the sides NFS-style, you want fancy rims, you want big tires... the list goes on. You think any of that would be cheap? Hell no. Cars are expensive. And if you should so happen to accidentally damage your car on the roads, you'll have to spend a buttload more cash just to fix it, never mind redo the work. But people still do it. Lots of people.

Now, there are those fledgling games people have mentioned in this thread (of which I am unfamiliar, for the most part) which are apparently affordable, balanced, and fun. To that, I have but two words: "For now." My advice is not to expect that if these companies get to GW's size they will continue to price things so cheaply, or make rules that benefit the customer's wishes. A quick glance at the major corporations behind the production of goods for other interests will show you that GW's business practices are not that out of the ordinary. GW raise prices and change rules sets to benefit their monetary gains, but so do plenty of other companies.

So you have some options. One is to switch to a "cheap" "hobby", i.e., one which has rules that aren't governed by a corporation. Chess is an example, as all you really need to play chess is a chess set and a person to play with. Keep finding people to play with and your problem is solved... except that chess is very, very different to 40k, or any other tabletop wargame, in that (i) there are no miniatures to collect and paint, and (ii) with a game like 40k you can tailor and build your list to be the best based on the current rules and metagame, whereas in chess both players have the same armies and it's entirely down to the decisions of you and your opponent - no dice involved here, folks!

Another option is to continually leap from bandwagon to bandwagon on what the cheapest mini-producing company is. This might be viable, except you might leap onto a bandwagon soon-to-crash. That probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.

In the end, it's up to you. These are just my two cents, and to an extent my counterarguments to all those saying GW need a stern talking to about their prices and their rules sets.
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