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post #31 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 04:43 PM
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I play Death Korps of Krieg (Did you even read the post before commenting on it?) why in the world would I be afraid of melta guns? At most I will have a single leman russ (very rarely 2) hiding in the back. Bikes? Why are bikes an issue? I have powerfists in my squads to deal with things just like that, but those bikes can't get inside of an armored transport can they? Nor throw out nearly as many attacks that ignore my armor straight up.



Ok now I am thinking you just lack experience with your selected army. Firstly no one will ever take chain axes so bikes actually throw only 1 less attack that can ignore armor (Bike champs with mark of khorne throws out just as many attacks). Also considering marine bike units are often 6-10 man strong these days your 2 str6 power weapon attack won't do much considering they hit on4+ then wound on a 3+ (and the bikes will have 18-30 attacks on the charge). Hell I am really doubting your credentials in this edition as your champ will also either be forced to the back of the unit (Check your book he is a character now) or you will accept the challenge and take your chances with the biker champ that strikes before you. and even if you win the challenge your unit will still get overrun by the bikes when they drop 7 gaurdsmen.

Also since you may just not know anything about chaos at all and may just be assuming stuff I should inform you about what CSM bikes are. 2 base attacks, able to buy 4 A on the charge for less then 6pts. For one more point then a berzerker. They also have krack grenades across the unit, and can get a 4+ cover save while reliably setting up a turn 2 charge. Also why the hell do you care about things ignoring your save in the first place, its a 5+. That's like orcs caring that they are getting hit by grey night force weapons. The more you talk the less experience I think you have in playing against the new chaos.... or the old chaos for that matter (Oh noes you have 2 power fist attacks at str6 even my 10 regular marines would still cause enough wounds to sweep a 20 man gaurd unit in combat even considering your average 1 armor save ignoring wound).

Your guard if a unit gets into combat it is generally a wright off, and a sign you screwed up. I mean what world do you live in where you expect 5+ armor and T3 to win any combat against anything in the CSM book? In fact considering your lack of fearless you should be well aware that 7 CSM's making the charge is just as terrifying as 15 berzerkers on the charge, as both are typically hopeless situations even for a 15-20 man guard unit.


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Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come
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post #32 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 05:01 PM
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I lost internet for 24 hours so couldn't respond in a timely fashion. By now Zion may have stopped reading but I think my point was missed slightly.

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Cult Marines are largely unchanged ...

I disagree only based on the principle that I like seeing varied armies and this allows people to make those varied armies. Restricting options never feels like the way to go to me. This still allows those big fluffy Cult armies, the mixed armies and even the armies without any cult units. It's legitimately very well thought out and nowhere near as bad as this knee-jerk reaction from the community is claiming it is.

From the whinging I've been reading online apparently cult units where WAY better back in the worse codex when they cost more and often they had other issues.
I'm not talking about "in comparison to last edition". I'm talking about in general. Cult Marines just feel underwhelming, and I think that it's because they're straddling a line between Troops and Elites. They had this problem in the last codex as well.

Take Terminators vs CSM. What changes? Better armour, better weapons, more attacks, higher cost for the Terminators. On the other hand CSM are cheaper, score, and are relatively disposable and generalist.

Terminators, compared to CSM feel elite. They are deserving of your Elites slot. They accomplish different things to CSM, and do different jobs better/worse. Chosen, although not very different apart from the 2A base, have a zillion and one options to make them specialists at anything, from quad-melta Rhino-bunker to demi-Death Company CC specialists. Again, they do something regular CSM can't do.

What do Zerkers do? They're CSM with Fearless and WS5. That doesn't feel "Elite". It feels "same old". CSM can fill exactly the same role for exactly the same cost, and both can score. If Zerkers had had Chainaxes as standard, they could have had a niche as "CC anti-horde unit". As it is, you just think "What's the difference between a Zerker and a CSM painted red?" and the answer is "not much". And that's a shame. I think the team writing the codex were resting on their laurels a bit regarding the cult marines. They could have got some new toys/abilities etc to take advantage of the new edition and instead got copy/pasted from the old dex with barely a change, and that's just a little disappointing. It doesn't make them unplayable, or terribad, just a bit "Is that all?".

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post #33 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 06:31 PM
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Yah I agree with sethis in wishing they took more liberties with the design. I mean all the cults have only been mildly tweaked from last edition, and some are almost virtually unchanged. It would have been nice if they shook up some of our expectations. Like make berzerkers WS 3 but with 4 attacks base with chain axes built in, or thousand sons being able to deep strike, you know break the mold and set up more eldar like symmetry within the army.

However we all know that the book is a bit lacking in parts and over developed in other. Why doesn't a hellbrute have any options besides its weapons? While the lord has more options then any other unit in the entire game. I mean don't get me wrong I love this current book (I play renegade marines), but the division in labor in designing units is really odd.


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Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come
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post #34 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 06:47 PM
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Nah nevermind, you know what I just don't care. Beserkers are still awesome.



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Last edited by Taggerung; 11-06-12 at 07:14 PM.
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post #35 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 07:02 PM
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Wow never seen someone miss the point that badly before in my life. Its like you have some sort of vision blinder on so you can only see pointless little factoids instead of the core arguments. Personally I also feel its no longer worth talking to you anymore, not because of any point you brought, up but because you have some weird belief that anyone on the internet thinks you know what your talking about. I only started arguing against you because you make weird hypotheticals just for the sake of arguing. (This thread is about the place of bezerkers in CSM armies not your private army and your distaste for people talking about the army they love and how to play it)

Me and others posters on this thread are trying to talk about the place of the unit as a whole and have no concern in how your specific army does against them and CSM's in general nor does anyone care.


Medusa: "I'm a witch, its my job to blaspheme against Gods."

Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come

Last edited by LukeValantine; 11-06-12 at 07:05 PM.
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post #36 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 07:22 PM
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Oh wait. Nevermind.



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Armies : Raven Lords Chapter, 219th Siege Regiment and Da Grotteef Waaaaghhhh

Currently Painting : 219th Siege Regiment, about 25% done! Last updated 3/7/2013

Last edited by Taggerung; 11-06-12 at 07:26 PM.
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post #37 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
Like make berzerkers WS 3 but with 4 attacks base with chain axes built in, or thousand sons being able to deep strike, you know break the mold and set up more eldar like symmetry within the army.
See, both of those ideas are neat takes on Cult Marines. Likewise Noise Marines would have been a prime candidate for Acute Senses and some nasty short range weapons (melta/flamer equivalents), giving you a nice Outflanking unit. Plague Marines as always would have been nails to kill but could have had things like Poison 2+ Flamers (not 2 per 5 though - broken) or Poison 4+ bolters or something. Anything other than copy-paste with some slight points adjustments. That's not a complaint about the power level, just the missed opportunity to shake things up a little.

The Eldar comparison is something I'm actually worried about. Everyone keeps muttering about Aspect Warriors as Troops but I hate the idea. 6 units of Fire Dragons isn't fun. It's boring. Aspect Warriors should be very killy/effective but never scoring, which means you need to balance out your army to have a good mix of Troops and Elites/FA/HS choices, instead of just taking Karandras and 60 Striking Scorpions (or whatever).

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Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
However we all know that the book is a bit lacking in parts and over developed in other. Why doesn't a hellbrute have any options besides its weapons? While the lord has more options then any other unit in the entire game. I mean don't get me wrong I love this current book (I play renegade marines), but the division in labor in designing units is really odd.
Some units do seem very, very thrown in with no thought or development. 1 dedicated transport? Still? Marines get a minimum of 3, in the case of BA - 6. Would a Chaos Pod or crazy Daemon-thing that carries infantry been too much to ask? Again, it's not the power level or lack of army building options I'm slightly annoyed by, it's the fact that they really had an opportunity to relaunch CSM in the same manner of DE, Necrons and GKs, but somehow missed the ball. What we got instead was a mishmash of increasingly dated units (Cult Marines, vehicles) with the new units who don't change the flavour of the army at all and range from terrible in every regard (Mutilators) to middling (Dragon) to awesome (New Raptor sculpts, Spawn rules). Maybe we all just have unreasonably high expectations following the revamp of some incredibly dated and limited books. Who knows?

90% of people think they are above average.

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post #38 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 08:57 PM
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The real essence of the problem with Berzerkers, as far as I see, comes down to the fact that close combat units no longer belong in rhinos (or other non-assault/open topped vehicles).

You lose so much tactical advantage from having to spend a full turn outside your transport before assaulting. Plague marines can get away with it because they're much more difficult to shoot to death, and aren't really at a disadvantage when assaulted.

Berzerkers just aren't a very good close combat unit. For tactical advantage, you're better off with raptors or bikes. For raw power, you're better off with kitted out chosen or terminators. If you want a unit that's distracting and capable of doing a ton of damage, you're much better off with either cultists with mark of khorne and flamers, or deep striking in allied bloodletters.

Zerks just don't seem to have a niche any more.

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post #39 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisgrax View Post
The real essence of the problem with Berzerkers, as far as I see, comes down to the fact that close combat units no longer belong in rhinos (or other non-assault/open topped vehicles).

You lose so much tactical advantage from having to spend a full turn outside your transport before assaulting. Plague marines can get away with it because they're much more difficult to shoot to death, and aren't really at a disadvantage when assaulted.

Berzerkers just aren't a very good close combat unit. For tactical advantage, you're better off with raptors or bikes. For raw power, you're better off with kitted out chosen or terminators. If you want a unit that's distracting and capable of doing a ton of damage, you're much better off with either cultists with mark of khorne and flamers, or deep striking in allied bloodletters.

Zerks just don't seem to have a niche any more.
A thousand times this. Berzerkers seem to pay a lot of points to get some very minor benefits that are all rendered pretty much useless by the fact there is no effective way to play to their strengths. They're not fast, they're not hardy, they just have a tiny little bit of a WS advantage over troop choices that, for 5 less points per model, have the same damage output and are scoring.

I like this codex, but damn it does lack internal balance. And transport options. Currently, CSM face the same problems SoB do with foot-slogging CC units: no cheap assault transport option, and even assuming a Land Raider, Chaos still pays it out of its nose due to no PotMS.

I still remain that MoK should've been just a flat out +1A, yes I'm still bitter about it, but that's not even the point, berzerkers have apparently been deemed obsolete and had to be taken out of the "competitive" picture in order to promote new toys. Which is hilarious because mutilators are about as bad (still have to try maulerfiends though).
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post #40 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-06-12, 11:51 PM
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Lets be frank the whole codex suffers form the whole why would I take X when Y does the job just as well while either costing noticably less, or having fewer weaknesses (Havocs vs predator tanks/defiler). Now if land raiders where 150pts then they would be a reasonable assault unit, but as it is the army is to slow and to expensive to play the game like orcs.

They only way I see them paying for themselves is to run em in uhuge spread out numbers with zero upgrades, but even here you run the chances of getting multi assault which stops you sweeping units. To bad I still like my berzerkers. However bikes and raptors with mark of khorne are still good units, and I will expect them to slowly push them out of play due to being faster...and in the case of raptors cheaper, both get the 4 attacks on the charge with mark of khorne, so they will destroy hordes just as well.....actually that's a lie as last time I checked berzerkers can't take two flamers.


Medusa: "I'm a witch, its my job to blaspheme against Gods."

Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come
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