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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 12:04 AM
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MSU is going to be the name of the game for Imperial Guard. With the new wound allocation rules and the ability of most rapid fire weapons to hit from 30" away, a Guard player can expect to lose an entire blob in one turn of shooting.

Add to that the fact that blobs are no longer good on either side of the assault rules. In order to assault, they have to wade through long range fire power and when they finally get into range, they have to deal with overwatch, and random charge distance. If an opponent challenges you, you get to deal with losing some power weapon attacks for a turn at best, and you have to be careful to make sure to carefully judge your opponent's number of attacks to avoid having to allocate wounds to your sergeants.

If you get assaulted, you lose out on extra attacks, you don't get to set up your positioning, and you have to contend with losing so many models that you can't pile in far enough to get your own attacks.

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Yup, that sounds about right. The only faction who are a bigger bunch of backstabbers than the Imperium are the Eldar (and this is debatable as the Eldar only stab OTHER factions in the back).
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
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Wow I never knew the rules changed so much , but that just makes me wanna get the book that much more.

Well for the IG talk you guys/gals are making it sound like your damned either way in a fight but as I recall your the range masters of the imperium granted it is alittle crazier now I dont think GW would of changed that. (but it is GW)



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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 09:10 AM
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I think that overall IG has come out pretty well under 6th Ed actually...the pros balance the cons so to speak.

Mech isn't dead for a start, and foot Infantry isn't going to be the saviour of the list, nor is it required any more than it was in 5th Ed to fill any holes that a Mech-heavy list had.

Blobs aren't a thing of the past, but I think a Power Blob will make way for a shooty Blob.
A Blob with multiple Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons, plus with a Commissar for that Morale boost (or a CCS with a Regimental Standard, or a Lord Commissar, or even Creed)...that's a ton of firepower, especially if it's Plasma Guns and Autocannons which is what I'm taking, and not to mention all those Lasguns with FRFSRF on them, plus some HWS's to boot.

Plus it's backed up with a PCS with 4 Flamers to act as a protector for the Blob, not to mention sticking the Blob behind an Aegis Line for that decent save.

I'm not knocking MSU Infantry Squads either, and just like in 5th Ed they can be used as bait to protect that Blob, as well as adding their own firepower to the shitload going downfield.

Regardless of what I said about the Power Blob been seen less of, I'm still going to try it out with Power Axes instead of Power Swords because Initiative doesn't matter a damn anyway, plus many are worried about Snipers removing the commissar and sgts, but it still takes a lot of shots to actually achieve that. Barrage sniping and Duels are also a problem, but it's not a given that the Blob will be ineffective, period.

Mech-wise Hull Points are a problem, but been able to shoot for longer, especially in the first few Turns, does balance out the fact that they are less survivable. Me, I'm just going to spam Vehicles even more than currently (when I field all-Mech lists anyway), so some should last the whole game.

Squadroning is also more viable because that immobilised vehicle doesn't have an effect on the remaining vehicles in that squadron, plus now that it's 25% Obscured gets a Cover Save and not 50% then all the better. Plus sticking my Russes behind that Aegis line with my shooty Blobs makes them more survivable also.

I could waffle on for hours probably, but IG are doing just fine in 6th ed thanks very much
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOBO View Post
I think that overall IG has come out pretty well under 6th Ed actually...the pros balance the cons so to speak.

Mech isn't dead for a start, and foot Infantry isn't going to be the saviour of the list, nor is it required any more than it was in 5th Ed to fill any holes that a Mech-heavy list had.

Blobs aren't a thing of the past, but I think a Power Blob will make way for a shooty Blob.
A Blob with multiple Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons, plus with a Commissar for that Morale boost (or a CCS with a Regimental Standard, or a Lord Commissar, or even Creed)...that's a ton of firepower, especially if it's Plasma Guns and Autocannons which is what I'm taking, and not to mention all those Lasguns with FRFSRF on them, plus some HWS's to boot.

Plus it's backed up with a PCS with 4 Flamers to act as a protector for the Blob, not to mention sticking the Blob behind an Aegis Line for that decent save.

I'm not knocking MSU Infantry Squads either, and just like in 5th Ed they can be used as bait to protect that Blob, as well as adding their own firepower to the shitload going downfield.

Regardless of what I said about the Power Blob been seen less of, I'm still going to try it out with Power Axes instead of Power Swords because Initiative doesn't matter a damn anyway, plus many are worried about Snipers removing the commissar and sgts, but it still takes a lot of shots to actually achieve that. Barrage sniping and Duels are also a problem, but it's not a given that the Blob will be ineffective, period.

Mech-wise Hull Points are a problem, but been able to shoot for longer, especially in the first few Turns, does balance out the fact that they are less survivable. Me, I'm just going to spam Vehicles even more than currently (when I field all-Mech lists anyway), so some should last the whole game.

Squadroning is also more viable because that immobilised vehicle doesn't have an effect on the remaining vehicles in that squadron, plus now that it's 25% Obscured gets a Cover Save and not 50% then all the better. Plus sticking my Russes behind that Aegis line with my shooty Blobs makes them more survivable also.

I could waffle on for hours probably, but IG are doing just fine in 6th ed thanks very much
I'm going back to running MSU instead of blobs, because it becomes so much easier to keep my army in the fight. An unlucky turn with a blob can have it lose 25%, a sergeant, and still fall back. That's anywhere from 2-5 squads of guardsmen, plus heavy/special weapons, plus a commissar or two. That's a significant part of your army. The same volume of firepower would wipe out a standard infantry squad, but you've still got four more that are completely undettered. With the new morale rules, it becomes even easier to get broken squads back in the fight, because they only need two guys left.

I'd also argue against putting heavy weapons in mobile infantry squads, and blobs in particular. It makes more sense to me to keep them immobile and avoid having to take snap shots. If placed correctly it would also keep them from getting shot at. Putting them in a blob wastes their potential, and gives your opponent another reason to focus his fire on the blob.

I agree that shooty blobs will become both more common and more effective, but I simply don't see them being more effective than MSU. I'd also like to add that I don't think that Guard got shortchanged. Even if I think melee blobs are a thing of the past, and shooty blobs are subpar, after Necrons, Guard are the army to beat in 6th.

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Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
Yup, that sounds about right. The only faction who are a bigger bunch of backstabbers than the Imperium are the Eldar (and this is debatable as the Eldar only stab OTHER factions in the back).
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 03:44 PM
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Imperium is fine. Some builds have taken a hit, but it's mostly the older codices. Right now, 2+ saves got a huge boost and no other faction can spam it like marines, and they have decent access to flyers, not to mention an ally matrix thick with battle brothers, meaning you can fill any gaps in your codex with the newest cheese.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 05:36 PM
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Mech armies (particularly Mech IG, because rhinos are even less effective assault boats than they were in 5th) are NOT in any way dead - they're not as "autowin" as they used to be. Still, having AV12 presents a solid target to non-gauss weapons that still makes chimeras viable, whereas weaker rhinos have gone back to being moving coffins again. I can see gunline esque mech making a resurgence, as iffy 2d6 charges make it considerably more risky to go in for the burn with a heavy flamer (and my mech wall o'death is out now - i mainly just use it for the screw you factor).

Platoon Command Squads with spammed flamers in chimeras are where should be at in this edition - 4 Templates (5 if you include the transport), which results in 4D3 hits on overwatch - pretty good at crowd control and point defence (i can see this unit cropping up more and more in 6th, probably to cover footslogging platoons). The unit protects the tank and the tank protects the contents - Mixed tactics here.

Heavy support spam lists seem an interesting thought now, with the double FoC at 2k like 18 vendettas (just for the lulz and a screw you to any air/mech lists), or as my signature refers to, 6 manticores. Yes very handy in the "Big guns never tire" mission, and perhaps a great leafblower type option.

Fortunately, as IG already have a broad arsenal in the early stages of 6th (Hydras & Vendettas in addition to artillery), we get to pick allied codices more as per personal preference, rather than to plug glaring gaps in our codex as we transition to 6th. Plus, even as an allied detachment, we can end up forming a HUGE army.

Personally, i think blobs WILL work, because largely it depends on how you use them - if you want an ablative meatshield for your chimera wall (like me, because i'm a shrewd Imperial Guard Commander, but not Chenkov level, yet ), then having a few infantry squads blobbed up is not too bad an idea (means the wall should stay a a little longer and have a greater sprea). If you want stuff to move up the table, then yes maybe a single hatestomp is not so great - particularly if you feel ballsy enough to go for a CC guard list (this has died given the nerf to FC and PWs - IG have limited access to PFs, and most of the PWs available are swords).

Splitting a 40man blob into 2 squads of 20 will be better, but i think going full MSU is still up for debate - One IS is stupendously weak on its own, but 2 is a bit more of a challenge, but still has small enough impact to be similar to MSU.

@Nave senrag - as moving and shooting is done on a model by model basis, you could conga line the unit (if its big enough), to have a heavy weapons battery at the back (which remains static as long as possible), with the rest of the blob moving forward and dakkaing with lasguns (this is more possible with the buff to rapid fire weapons).

Also wanted to add - with the advent of "Our weapons are useless", walkers like the armoured sentinel have lost such a great role - locking down units with a much higher value than the sentinel itself - armies such as nids just need to get themselves out of synapse range to get out of tarpits. Plus the Plascan nerf might mean we see less armoured sentinels overall (WTF?? Power armoured super smurfs get a better chance than a tank to avoid a gun overheating? Matt Ward must have had a field day).

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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 05:46 PM
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Having tried a few thing for the fun of it (including a Psyker spam 600pt guard army) i'm going back to my Catachans lead by Stracken.

I see the combat blob still working against most armies as it did in 5th if built correctly, only Marines present true issues and then only if they terminator spam.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 06:59 PM
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Sheer amount of shots, flamers, special and heavy weapons will make shooty blobs rather strong, but let's not focus on Guard. What are your thoughs on Astartes? Baring OPed Death Company, as far as rage goes.

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius View Post
with the advent of "Our weapons are useless", walkers like the armoured sentinel have lost such a great role - locking down units with a much higher value than the sentinel itself - armies such as nids just need to get themselves out of synapse range to get out of tarpits. Plus the Plascan nerf might mean we see less armoured sentinels overall
Tyranids will often be in Synapse, and Orks will have Mob Rule, so any Fearless tarpit can't choose to fail their morale test as a result of OWAU because they don't take them in the first place. Amusingly, against enemy blob squads, the Commissar shoots the Sergeant and then runs off with everybody else.

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(WTF?? Power armoured super smurfs get a better chance than a tank to avoid a gun overheating? Matt Ward must have had a field day).
Not getting this. On a roll of a 1, the gun overheats. For Space Marines, on a roll of 1 or 2, they lose all of their health and die. For Sentinels, on a roll of 1, 2 or 3, they lose half of their health, therefore requiring twice as many 1s to be killed. Space Marines also roll twice when they Rapid Fire, so they have twice the chance of rolling a 1.

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 10:22 PM
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Many 'nids now benefit from being out of synapse, as the Rage rules just got better...

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