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post #81 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by nevynxxx View Post
And a damned shame they binned necromunda!
You can still download the rules from GW can't you?
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...&aId=21500022a
See, not completely binned

Plus they still have the models, or you could use anything, I would use the street wars stuff from foundry
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post #82 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:55 AM
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Plus, the last sentence is foolish. Apart from the Emperor's Champion, there are MANY lists that don't function without certain elements - Loganwing without Logan, Nipplewing lists without Dante, Sternguard lists without Pedro, Deathwing without Belial etc etc.
Can you take terminators without Logan or Belial? Can you take Sternguard without Pedro? I don't even know what the Dante one is. The only model I'll give you there is the Emperors Champion, he's required. Other than that no one model or unit is required to play a game from any particular codex.

For DA to use terminators as troops, yes, you need Belial, to use terminators DA need....terminators. To make Sternguard scoring you need Pedro, to take Sternguard you need....sternguard. To say any model, besides the emps champ, is absolutely required to play a game from any codex is to rely too much on list building and not enough on tactics.


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post #83 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 12:49 PM
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Now I can't tell if you're simply moving the goalposts, or you actually believe that crap.

You said:
Quote:
There are no absolute models that have be used in any list,
I gave you numerous examples of where that isn't true.

You didn't say "There are no absolute models that have to be used in any CODEX." In which case I would only have had the three examples to prove you wrong, though I would also have pointed to the previous Necron Codex, where they only had one Troops option, and only one HQ option that didn't require opponent's permission to play.

Three examples? Why yes, Tau are compelled to take a squad of Fire warriors, and also to take a Commander.

I refrained from mentioning those extra two before because I didn't want to make you look ignorant. Ho hum. When you say something blatantly untrue like
Quote:
Other than [The Emperor's Champion] no one model or unit is required to play a game from any particular codex. ...To say any model, besides the emps champ, is absolutely required to play a game from any codex is to rely too much on list building and not enough on tactics.
then the cat is already out of the bag.

Tactics don't determine your list, and the best player in the world with the worst list possible will still lose to a good player with a good list, irrespective of tactics employed.

Tactics are determined by what you face, and the terrain you face it on. Strategy determines what you want to use, list determines how you get in the game, and luck determines how well you do with the things you have - these things are, more or less, equally important. Acting like your army list isn't an important component of the game makes me want to laugh and cry in equal measure.

Nipplewing, for future reference, is a list where Sanguinary Guard are selected as Scoring units, for which Dante is required.
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post #84 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 01:19 PM
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I think you're missing the point, just becuase there is some super model, doesn't mean you have to use it in a list to win. I could take pyrovores and rippers in a list, along with other things of course, and win with it, though it would be very difficult.

I could be wrong about Tau, but looking at the codex Kroot are troops. Granted I glanced around a bit and didn't notice anything requiring fire warriors be used, it could be there, I may have missed that part. Necrons were one of the most out of date codices there is and it's been updated, so that point is moot.


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post #85 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 01:38 PM
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When other people however are using that model, and are of equal or better skill at the game, you tend to need to maximise your chances to win. Of course, you could "play for the sake of playing and just to have fun", and all that mush, but I'm a competitive minded soul, and unfortunately one of of those fuckers who'll look at bringing any potential chance to win to bear. I'm not WAAC in the sense that I'll cheat, but I'll definitely go by the wording of the rules (Lumbering Behemoth, anyone? Magic Armour Slaughtermasters?) to use any chance I have to win.

As a general rule of course - there'll be occasions when I adopt a new attitude, such as getting someone involved in the game, or whatever, but I like to play my best.

I don't go cooking with shit ingredients and then cook some food which tastes horrible, and say "who cares what it tastes like, at least I had fun making it".

As to the firewarriors, they have 1+ Requirement in their title.

I hope they bring Angkor Prok (removing Fire Warrior minimum requirement), Stalker kindred (think Gnarloc Cavalry, but smaller), Vulture Kindred, and the like back with the next codex, even if they don't do the models.

People can't expect to take shit, and then expect them to do well. It's like baking cake with subpar ingredients. You'll find that maybe once in a while, they'll turn out well, but on occasion, that shit flour you buy will make your cake stodgy and starch. Now some might enjoy their cake like that, but I like mine to taste light and floaty, and I'll use the best ingredients available.

Anyway, back on topic, NOOOO VEHICLES.



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post #86 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 02:08 PM
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When other people however are using that model, and are of equal or better skill at the game, you tend to need to maximise your chances to win....It's like baking cake with subpar ingredients. You'll find that maybe once in a while, they'll turn out well, but on occasion, that shit flour you buy will make your cake stodgy and starch....
I happen to have a lot more experience of baking than with 40k, and I have to say that I disagree entirely.

In fact, what I've tended to find is that recipes tend to be far more exact with the quantities and qualities of the ingredients then is necessary. with some recipes it is as much as how you handle the ingredients - folding rather than mixing, for example - that makes the difference as it is the supposed quality of the eggs.

I feel that people exaggerate the relatively minor differences in points efficiency of various choices, over and above luck, tactics and other factors.

Of course, when everyone who is determined to win is making the same choices then it is easy to point to tournament results as proof that these lists are the strongest, but this is an example of circular reasoning.

As to vehicles - I like the idea from earlier in the thread of tying the lack of vehicles in to a particular mission, narrative scenario and what have you.

For what it's worth, when I started playing 40k people generally had far fewer tanks, mostly because models weren't available, and armies were generally smaller. We still played on 6' or 8' by 4' boards.

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post #87 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 02:16 PM
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How did this turn into a debate about models being required for running net lists? I never saw anyone say "vehicles should be banned" either. The question was, can you play 40K without vehicles? Yes. Nevermind personal proclivities to using or not using them. Nevermind if the list is competitive or shit ingredients. Those who began providing examples of not using vehicles were showing that it could be done. For some reason this possibility offends people. But turning the thread into a irrelevant debate solves nothing. Both sides can have their cake and eat it. If you like running vehicles, do so. If you don't, then don't. If you want to organize a tournament, running scenarios without vehicles, give it a shot. Judging from posts here, some people would like the change of pace. But can we not judge each other based on our play styles? If I brought my Dark Eldar army in their transports and found myself facing a non-mech Guard, I certainly wouldn't call the player stupid. It was his choice of what to bring as it was mine and if he beats me I won't feel foolish for saying he was stupid. Maybe it's all the small games I play(decided by gaming group, not me) but running no vehicles just adds a new dynamic to the game. Of course, there is nothing quite like tanks blasting each other apart and mowing down infantry either. But surely we can post our opinions without insulting or infuriating others. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we have to start attacking each other.

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post #88 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Scythes View Post
I think you're missing the point, just becuase there is some super model, doesn't mean you have to use it in a list to win. I could take pyrovores and rippers in a list, along with other things of course, and win with it, though it would be very difficult.

I could be wrong about Tau, but looking at the codex Kroot are troops. Granted I glanced around a bit and didn't notice anything requiring fire warriors be used, it could be there, I may have missed that part. Necrons were one of the most out of date codices there is and it's been updated, so that point is moot.
No Scythes, YOU are missing the point. I said nothing of winning.

If you want to play a themed army of Death/Raven/Nipple/Draigo/Purifier/Logan/Wolf/Henchman/Wrack/Wing-wing, then you MUST select certain HQs.

In order to play those LISTS, you MUST have the 'unlock' component.

There are no two ways about it.

[Those HQs are, of course, Belial, Sammael, Dante, Draigo, Crowe, Logan, Canis, Coteaz, Haemonculi, the Baron.]
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post #89 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 02:50 PM
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You can play raven and deathwing without belial or sammael, heck you don't even need the DA codex for them, the only thing that makes ravenwing ravenwing is painting them black, for deathwing its painting them bone

Can't comment on the others as nobody here does them
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post #90 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanquisherMBT View Post
You can play raven and deathwing without belial or sammael, heck you don't even need the DA codex for them, the only thing that makes ravenwing ravenwing is painting them black, for deathwing its painting them bone

Can't comment on the others as nobody here does them
I'm sorry, what? Do you even know what the words you type mean?
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