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post #71 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
try ig armoured company from forge world. good luck playing objectives but having a possible 40+ tanks is damn fun.
Amen to that, although within my Group we would count the Tanks that fill the Troop FOC as scoring.
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post #72 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 12:51 AM
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As to the original question I agree that it might be fun to try a match without any vehicles. It adds a new challenge to the game.

As an aside it IS possible to represent the Space Wolf 13th company with the Space Marine codex. If you take Tyberos the Red Wake from Imperial Armour 10 (with your opponents permission of course) then your basic tac marines can swap the bolter for a close combat weapon for that magical BP/CCW combo. In addition your marines now have Furious Charge and even can suffer from Rage when they win combat against infantry units. That sounds rather fluffy for a Wulfen list in my eyes.


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post #73 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 01:09 AM
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As an aside it IS possible to represent the Space Wolf 13th company with the Space Marine codex. If you take Tyberos the Red Wake from Imperial Armour 10 (with your opponents permission of course) then your basic tac marines can swap the bolter for a close combat weapon for that magical BP/CCW combo. In addition your marines now have Furious Charge and even can suffer from Rage when they win combat against infantry units. That sounds rather fluffy for a Wulfen list in my eyes.
My son's first SM army was 13th Company, so I'll let him read this post, and I have IA10 as well, so it might inspire him to build the 13th again.

+Rep for that, thanks man
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post #74 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 04:30 AM
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If there has ever been even a single battle in the history of 40k then it can happen again. And in the past 10,000+ years, I imagine there has been at least one battle where no vehicles were present. If every army HAD to use vehciles, they would be listed as 1+ in every codex. But they're not, you're not forced to use vehicles, therefore you can use none. it just means...I know this will blow some peoples minds....you have to use tactics and not some net list you printed off cuz it looks uber. There are no absolute models that have be used in any list, just some that are more efficient and effective than others.


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post #75 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
Shaantitus, by mobile artillery do you mean the Heavy Weapons Teams? They aren't vehicles, that'd be like banning Jetbikes, or Jump Packs, or Cavalry...
I know i am replying late. By mobile artillery i mean the medusa, basilisk, manticore, hydra etc. Self propelled artillery weapons. The heavy weapon teams are infantry. As for the stationary artillery i mean the heavy mortar, thudd gun, earthshaker emplacement, medusa carriage etc.

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post #76 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 05:02 AM
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I actually like the gritty feel of a close-quarters game with no or few vehicles. A game where you've got squads advancing through ruins that cover the entire table, really playing up the vertical element of the terrain, etc... it's a hell of a lot of fun. But both players need to come to the table wanting to play that game. The bog-standard 1500/1850/2000 point list assumes you've got access to transports, heavy armor, etc (or its equivalent), and the game is balanced with that in mind.

I actually think vehicles were better in 4th edition than they are now, but for whatever reason, both community and games designers have emphasized mechanized armies much more over the course of 5th than they did during 3rd or 4th. The Codecies are written with the idea that you're probably bringing a transport for most of, if not all, your infantry units, and you're bringing tanks to support them. It's not realistic (in terms of gameplay, at least) to expect your opponents not to bring armor to the table unless you've had a prior arrangement to play a scenario with minimal vehicles.

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post #77 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
@Tabby - That's not a good argument. Rogue Trader was about as far removed from the current edition of the game as Man o' War is from Talisman. Mechanised forces were less powerful or important to have (as a general rule) in EVERY other Edition as in this.

Playing without them requires significant other mobility, and little or no loss of firepower while doing so. Not every army can do this equally, and while the armies aren't exactly all on par at present, the differences are far greater with vehicles excluded.

I don't know if anyone is getting upset, but I do know that removing vehicles from the game damages some armies more than others, and most of the ones hurt are ones already at a disadvantage.
It's a perfectly valid arguement, (and I didn't play RT), as what I've done is played every edition since 2nd Ed and not *needed* tanks in any. Including this edition. My arguement is you can play just fine without them, ilm not saying they should be removed as was the very first post in this thread:
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Originally Posted by spanner94ezekiel View Post
So I was wondering, what with all the prevalence of mech in 5th ed, how would it affect each faction if vehicles removed. I.e. say I ran a tournament where no vehicles could be used (excluding bikes/jetbikes) at all?

I know some armies (DE, Guard) would suffer more than others (Daemons, Nids), but would it be viable without completely nerfing any particular army? Obviously manouverability then becomes a bit of an issue, so board sizes may have to be reduced to say 4'x4'.

Thoughts?
He was suggesting could the game be played without tanks, and was wondering what the effect on each army would be. He wasn't saying "YOU MUSTN'T PLAY WITH TANKS!" In my time I've played Sisters, Space Wolves, Eldar, Chaos, nids, Guard, and I've borrowed DE, and I can safely say that in any edition *including this one* I've been happy to play with minimal tanks, and been able to win and have fun.

So, in responce to the original question: yes, I think the game can be played without tanks. Some factions will find it harder than others, but it's not an insurmountable challenge. Should tanks be removed? No. Could games be played happily without them? Yes.

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post #78 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_Newman View Post
As an aside it IS possible to represent the Space Wolf 13th company with the Space Marine codex. If you take Tyberos the Red Wake from Imperial Armour 10 (with your opponents permission of course) then your basic tac marines can swap the bolter for a close combat weapon for that magical BP/CCW combo. In addition your marines now have Furious Charge and even can suffer from Rage when they win combat against infantry units. That sounds rather fluffy for a Wulfen list in my eyes.
Good point, fair enough - although you would still be unable to play with the standard Codex, that is the best way to represent Wulfen I can think of, it's just unfortunate it requires opponent's permission, and your Grey Slayers would lose the Bolter.
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Originally Posted by Scythes View Post
It just means...I know this will blow some peoples minds....you have to use tactics and not some net list you printed off cuz it looks uber. There are no absolute models that have be used in any list, just some that are more efficient and effective than others.
While I'm sure such players exist, I've never met one. Anyone playing against players of similar skill level will require tactics irrespective of army list, the 'you have to use tactics, duh!' argument is used too frequently by people who are trying to force people to play their way for me to accept it as a valid argument, even if you're not directing it at me...Saying it implies a lack of ability on the part of your detractors, and of moral superiority in your own standard of play that, without any evidence, is just so much hot air.

Plus, the last sentence is foolish. Apart from the Emperor's Champion, there are MANY lists that don't function without certain elements - Loganwing without Logan, Nipplewing lists without Dante, Sternguard lists without Pedro, Deathwing without Belial etc etc.
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Originally Posted by shaantitus View Post
I know i am replying late. By mobile artillery i mean the medusa, basilisk, manticore, hydra etc. Self propelled artillery weapons. The heavy weapon teams are infantry. As for the stationary artillery i mean the heavy mortar, thudd gun, earthshaker emplacement, medusa carriage etc.
Ah, fair enough. Well, as vehicles, I was assuming they'd all already have been banned. I still think IG would be sufficiently strong without them, even though it's obviously not ideal.
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Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
I actually like the gritty feel of a close-quarters game with no or few vehicles. A game where you've got squads advancing through ruins that cover the entire table, really playing up the vertical element of the terrain, etc... it's a hell of a lot of fun. But both players need to come to the table wanting to play that game. The bog-standard 1500/1850/2000 point list assumes you've got access to transports, heavy armor, etc (or its equivalent), and the game is balanced with that in mind.
Absolutely, it's a totally different challenge to the standard game. Sadly, it makes T4 even more important.

Quote:
I actually think vehicles were better in 4th edition than they are now, but for whatever reason, both community and games designers have emphasized mechanized armies much more over the course of 5th than they did during 3rd or 4th. The Codecies are written with the idea that you're probably bringing a transport for most of, if not all, your infantry units, and you're bringing tanks to support them. It's not realistic (in terms of gameplay, at least) to expect your opponents not to bring armor to the table unless you've had a prior arrangement to play a scenario with minimal vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTabby View Post
It's a perfectly valid arguement, (and I didn't play RT), as what I've done is played every edition since 2nd Ed and not *needed* tanks in any.
Tanks may well have been slightly better off in 4e, but definitely not Transports - and I'd say part of the reason Tanks were better was because people didn't use Melta weapons even a fraction as much. Having a Transport explode and auto-kill the unit inside was a ridiculous move by GW, as it is a clear disincentive to buy an entire type of model, and can't have helped vehicle sales one bit.

Experiences of what you did or didn't play in previous Editions is irrelevant however, to how good or not vehicles are in 5e, and how good they'll be in 6 months time when people start figuring out what's different about 6th.

I played every edition after RT myself, and what was a good army in 2e (Virus Bombs and Vortex Grenades wahey!) has no bearing whatsoever on any subsequent Edition - and the Rhino Rush of 3rd, or the Ulthwe/Iron Warriors list of 3.5, or Nidzilla/Assault Cannon Spam/Falcons and Harlies of 4e - none have any relevance to 5th edition. Overall, vehicles have never been as much of a force multiplier to your army as in this edition - they've never had it so good. It also makes the game feel like it's actually the future, instead of guys running around in the standard semi-desert lugging Lascannons just in case the other player has a Dreadnought or two.
Quote:
I can safely say that in any edition *including this one* I've been happy to play with minimal tanks, and been able to win and have fun.
Absolutely, it's possible to play anything you want and have fun.

As long as we all remember fun is subjective - my fun from most of my time in the game was despite not knowing what units were any good, and I enjoy the game more in 5e than ever. For me, vehicles are a major factor in that.

/
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post #79 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Son of Horus View Post
I actually like the gritty feel of a close-quarters game with no or few vehicles. A game where you've got squads advancing through ruins that cover the entire table, really playing up the vertical element of the terrain, etc... it's a hell of a lot of fun.
And a damned shame they binned necromunda!
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post #80 of 196 (permalink) Old 04-23-12, 11:22 AM
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It would bugger up some armies, IG would be ok if you ran them as blobs but its not how I'd want to play - I'm a treadhead, I like my tanks, even though it wasn't very competitive I took a IA Tank Company to a FW friendly tournament and had a blast, and even though I consider myself a competitively minded player, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

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