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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-18-12, 11:50 PM
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The only problem I see is that by banning any unit from the standard codex, you're basically gimping that army instead of learning how to deal with it. I'll agree that it may not reflect on your generalship as a whole but it is better to learn to deal with the unknown or unexpected than not. Doom really isn't that powerful when it comes down to it, you just need to instadeath it which is pretty easy in my opinion.

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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 04:30 AM
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Playing "down" to your competition is one way to improve your gaming skills, but it's no where near as effective as playing someone who is equal or above your skill "level." Same thing with handicapping yourself against lesser skilled players, it might give you minor insight on how to use an individual unit "better" (as you need to get more out of them) but that's relative to the less skilled player you're playing against.

That being said the real problem with playing "down" to your competition is your competition never tends to play "up," for various reasons. Most players that play 40k (or any game) "competitively" will have access to much more resources then a "casual" player would have, especially if they have been playing for an extended period of time. Playing "down" becomes easy when you use units that were good in a previous edition of a codex but now aren't so great any more, while playing "up" may require several new units along with new strategies to use them. While you can proxy units for a while, this may become an issue after an extended period of time.

If this happens it means that the "casual" player is expecting the "competitive" player to cater to their needs to make the game more enjoyable for them. Why must one type of player, who carries a stigma in the community for their play style, be forced to play a certain way, while the complaining players can continue playing how they want?

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Originally Posted by Lord Azune View Post
The only problem I see is that by banning any unit from the standard codex, you're basically gimping that army instead of learning how to deal with it. I'll agree that it may not reflect on your generalship as a whole but it is better to learn to deal with the unknown or unexpected than not.
1000x this. Very well said Lord Azune
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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 05:17 AM
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If this happens it means that the "casual" player is expecting the "competitive" player to cater to their needs to make the game more enjoyable for them. Why must one type of player, who carries a stigma in the community for their play style, be forced to play a certain way, while the complaining players can continue playing how they want?
Because that's how this hobby works - if you bitch loudly enough and shun people that think differently than you do you get your way.
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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 05:18 AM
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@Sethis: This was well-thought out and well-written, you've articulated what I've been struggling to rationalize for a couple of months now. +rep.

As of this writing, I've been playing 40K for about 13 months. The players that introduced me to this game have been playing for 10+ years. Playing every other week, I've only recently (back in January) gotten my first few victories. My friends went easy on me for the first few games in Feb of 2011 and then the kid gloves came off--hell, one friend didn't even bother and tabled me in a Spearhead-Annihilation game (he was Tau, I was SM--that was the longest footslog across a board ever). But my friends know me, I'm tenacious, especially if I find something I like (e.g., 40K).

In the past couple of months, I've been the one doing the recruiting, trying to convince other friends to play 40K. A couple have taken the bait and there are now two new players. Knowing these two for decades now, I know that if I were to table them, I'd lose them; they'd stop playing. I've had to ease off on the aggressive tactics. I would rather have others to play with for months and years to come rather than add to my "win" column.

So now for me, there's a bit of a schism in my play style (though my army builds are all-comers so there's no real change there) depending on who my opponent is. And the best part is that I know this is only temporary. With the progress that I see, I know that for one the players, I can soon discard the kid gloves, and suggest taking it to 1,000-point games (we usually play 500 to 750).

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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
Playing "down" to your competition is one way to improve your gaming skills, but it's no where near as effective as playing someone who is equal or above your skill "level."
Correct, but as I said in my initial post, this is me talking about situations where finding such players is either difficult or impossible. I didn't say this was the best way to improve, just that it was one way of doing so.

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That being said the real problem with playing "down" to your competition is your competition never tends to play "up," for various reasons.
That depends. Several of the people at my club have become markedly better over the last year, mainly due to the influence of me and my friends. Others, of course, will never improve because they refuse to take advice, or because being good at the game is not important to them, which is their choice.

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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
Most players that play 40k (or any game) "competitively" will have access to much more resources then a "casual" player would have, especially if they have been playing for an extended period of time. Playing "down" becomes easy when you use units that were good in a previous edition of a codex but now aren't so great any more, while playing "up" may require several new units along with new strategies to use them. While you can proxy units for a while, this may become an issue after an extended period of time.
And this was my point in doing all of this gradually, over a period of many weeks. Once you find someone willing to get on board with improving their army then you can help them plan purchases or give them advice on what to avoid.

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If this happens it means that the "casual" player is expecting the "competitive" player to cater to their needs to make the game more enjoyable for them. Why must one type of player, who carries a stigma in the community for their play style, be forced to play a certain way, while the complaining players can continue playing how they want?
Uh, I think you missed the majority of my point. It's not about one player forcing his style on another, it's about compromise. Unless you like mashing casual armies into the ground with your GT Winning tourney list (and are, by extension, a complete tool) then no-one enjoys a completely one-sided affair, to the point where those players may never play each other again. I know that there are people at my club who avoid playing with me, and there are people I avoid playing against in turn, simply because I literally can't lower my army to the point where it would be an even fight. I would have to deliberately play badly to even give the illusion of a fair fight - and that is what I am trying to avoid.

Remember this is all in the context of someone who enjoys playing competitively, but who lacks a decent number of similar people to play with. It could equally apply to the only person in a gaming club who builds fluffy armies facing down 20 people with min/max netlists, and the same principles would apply. The fluffy player tries to improve, the competitive players try to have fun with units they would never normally take.

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Originally Posted by Lord Azune View Post
The only problem I see is that by banning any unit from the standard codex, you're basically gimping that army instead of learning how to deal with it. I'll agree that it may not reflect on your generalship as a whole but it is better to learn to deal with the unknown or unexpected than not.
Just banning a unit doesn't necessarily gimp a codex. For example in Magic: The Gathering, my local playgroup has always heavily frowned on Land Destruction decks. That doesn't mean that we've gimped Red or Black, it just means that as a group, we do not find Land Destruction fun, and although we could build decks to counter it, we prefer to just remove it from the equation when we're having social games. In tournaments, of course we'll play against it (and if we think it's a likely choice to come up, we may start practicing against it as well) but there are still plenty of red decks you can build that don't involve Stone Rain (or whatever).

Likewise agreeing not to use the Doom doesn't mean the Nid dex is gimped (the majority of competitive lists don't even take him) it just means that if your local scene has less Mech than normal, and likes plasma a bit more than melta as a result, amicably banning the Doom prevents games that are not fun for one or both players.

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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 10:00 AM
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So you'd be cool with the group saying: "Hey, no AV 14 vehicles. They're no fun to play against"?

Magic the gathering has a crapton of cards to pull from if you're playing legacy, less if you're playing standard but it has options because you can mix colors. Removing units from an already limited pool as it is, gives the player less strategic choices.

Hive Fleet Tarasque/The Black Legion of Khemri
Battles: 13/3
Wins: 8/2
Minor Wins: 0/0
Minor Losses: 1/0
Losses: 4/1


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Last edited by Lord Azune; 03-19-12 at 10:04 AM.
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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lord Azune View Post
So you'd be cool with the group saying: "Hey, no AV 14 vehicles. They're no fun to play against"?

Magic the gathering has a crapton of cards to pull from if you're playing legacy, less if you're playing standard but it has options. Removing units from an already limited pool as it is, gives the player less strategic choices.
No, I wouldn't care much, because I play Eldar and (currently) Daemons. If anything it would let me use my Elites slots for things that aren't Fire Dragons, which would be interesting.

On a serious note, then no, I wouldn't be cool with it because:

- Many different books can (and often do) take AV14 vehicles. SM, SW, BA, IG, Orks, BT, DA, GK, CSM. Only one book can take the Doom.

- AV14 vehicles are a central component to certain archetypes of army. You build your list around them. You don't build your list around the Doom, you just take it because you think you have enough Hive Guard for the people you're playing against, and you have 125pts free.

- There is less of an excuse for being unable to counter an AV14 vehicle. The way to counter Doom is to mech up, which involves buying a lot of 20 models for 35pt units. This is monetarily expensive and prohibitive for some people. Dealing with AV14 requires you to have a few meltaguns which come on the sprue anyway, and if not meltaguns then at least Lances/Lascannon/MCs/Chainfists/Meltabombs/Multimeltas, some of which you'll find in any army.

- And finally the most important one... You would never get a unanimous vote to disallow them. Unless it was somehow a small group of people who only ever played with Xenos armies. If the vote is not unanimous, then it is not ethical, because you're forcing someone to comply with what you believe is the "right" way to play, above and beyond what is written in the rules. This is why I passionately hate comp in tournaments.

Lastly, if a miracle occurred, and there was a gaming group somewhere that did amicably choose to not play with AV14... what's your problem? It's their choice. If everyone is happy, why not leave them to enjoy it?

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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 12:46 PM
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Seems strange that a unit would be "banned" and yet everyone was happy with that choice? for something to be tagged as "banned" you would expect that thing to have been a issue for people to deal with,generally for something to be banned people have to express a negative view of it and if enough people agree with that then the thing becomes "banned".
So it follows that if a group banned the Doom, i would think the people using it effectively would disagree with the ban but were likely outnumber in the vote.

Obviously this is just a hypothetical observation/opinion, but its very rare for people who are enjoying something to want to ban it. Personally if the group of wargamers i played with started to even consider removing a unit from any armys codex i would have to leave and find elsewhere to play because i think that a persons choice to choose to field a unit should not be decided by other players who i might face in a game,tournaments is a different matter, but in normal every day games no unit should be out of bounds.



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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Uh, I think you missed the majority of my point. It's not about one player forcing his style on another, it's about compromise.
But at it's core that's what your asking. You asking for Competitive players to play "down" (implying their normal play style is better) to their Casual competition. Even if a Casual player plays "up" they still will not be playing at a Competitive players level. So the compromise is "Competitive players should play more casually, Casual players should suck less."

It's not much of a compromise if you're a Competitive player playing as a Casual player, while the Casual Players still play casually.
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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-19-12, 05:09 PM
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The only thing I'd see banned are the 5 point missiles on Dark eldar flyers.
The joys of setting out large guard infantry armies are dubious at best made even more irritating when your opponent then rolls a 4 and lands twelve large templates on your troops killing on 2s and says well that's a well spent 60 points now for the rest of my shooting as you pack away half your army without firing a shot.
The best way to counter this is mech but I refuse to spend the best part of 2-3 hundred quid to counter a small part of someones list.
I'm a competative gamer with a fairly uncompetative army, against a competent opponent I'll probably lose half ,against a competative list it's fairly even as well but get a competent general with a good list I'll lose maybe 75% of the time because the cost of the truly competative stuff is out of my price range unless I've got some bit's and build it myself.
I try and play as hard as my army let's me as it's cheating your opponent if you only put half effort in what can they learn if your not trying and let things slide, My army at the moment isn't optimised and would get ripped on any armylist forum but against most opponents it holds it's own. If I win against a good opponent I've earnt it if I win against a weaker opponent as long as I don't act a dick and put them off then hopefully they will learn something and be better next time and if they want advice I'm willing to help.

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