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post #151 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 10:57 PM
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Yah, and the over generalization breaks down even more when you realize that each army is designed differently in relation to both factors.


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post #152 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 12:54 AM
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Yes, but if you think about it that only applies when an army is piss poor at CC or shooting. One or the other.

In the case of a CC army, you actually rely on your enemy being unable to shoot whilst you're stuck into the combat AND being worse at CC than your army. That's a big shout.

All of this has happened before.
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post #153 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 01:48 AM
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In the case of a CC army, you actually rely on your enemy being unable to shoot whilst you're stuck into the combat AND being worse at CC than your army. That's a big shout.
Why is anyone making a CC army in today's day and age? There's literally no good reason to do it. This isn't because close combat is "bad" though, but because it's best used depending on the situation rather than blindly attempting to instigate an assault regardless of other factors.

Close combat is risky but potentially hugely rewarding, as it takes a ton of effort to remove a unit from an objective if you're doing it entirely from range whereas assaults are typically over in one or two rounds. Good, balanced lists are equipped to engage in combat when it would prove advantageous to do so (depending, there are some armies that forgo assault entirely just due to how awful they are at it, like Tau).
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post #154 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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lol this just reminds me when a friend of mine (chaos deamon player) designed a full Khorne army... my god, it would be absolutely deadly in CC but the deep striking and distinct lack of ranged weapons made it not even though trying it out, hah.

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post #155 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 11:58 AM
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Why is anyone making a CC army in today's day and age? There's literally no good reason to do it. This isn't because close combat is "bad" though, but because it's best used depending on the situation rather than blindly attempting to instigate an assault regardless of other factors.

Close combat is risky but potentially hugely rewarding, as it takes a ton of effort to remove a unit from an objective if you're doing it entirely from range whereas assaults are typically over in one or two rounds. Good, balanced lists are equipped to engage in combat when it would prove advantageous to do so (depending, there are some armies that forgo assault entirely just due to how awful they are at it, like Tau).
So you're saying that you wouldn't make an entirely CC army because it is, essentially, useless.

Would you make an entirely shooty army?

All of this has happened before.
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post #156 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 12:52 PM
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I always find close combat to be the most enjoyable sequence of the game. The chance to hit back and the chance of a dramatic reprieve for a lone guardsmen. Although I do find there are sometimes a few too many fearless units.

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post #157 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 01:08 PM
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Hey, don't get me wrong. I love CC. I play BA. How could I not?

But the fact is that's getting stuck in is a risky business. Shooting isn't. Judge that by how you would judge what you would and wouldn't shoot at with particular units, and then by what you would and wouldn't run across the board to charge at.

Take a stupid example: What, exactly, wouldn't you shoot at with guardsmen who have a lasgun (one shot) at S3? Almost nothing, I'm betting. What, exactly, WOULD you run across the board and charge at with guardsmen who have one attack at S3? Almost nothing, I'm betting.

CC has it's place, but until GW make the stats more even with shooting, then shooting will always be better in most circumstances.

That's why it's silly to compare a BA dread with blood talons to a unit like long fangs. Yes, blood talons ON PAPER are ridiculous. They hardly ever get to back it up with dice rolls, though, because 10+ wounds, almost all of the time, is a pipe dream. It's like praying for lucky dice - and that's not worth counting on.

Take LF, though. They are as solid a shooty unit as this game gets, I reckon. They get spammed like a motherfucker - and for good reason. No need to count on poor statistics - just put em on the board and let them shoot the fuck out of the enemy. Not much risk involved. That's why it's such an awesome unit. A BA dread with talons COULD potentially rip through a massive unit like a beast. It could also be stuck in CC, doing fuck all for quite a while, too. That's never really going to be a problem you get with LF unless someone charges them - and the only reason they would do that is to keep them from shooting you to bits............

When CC has become a way of closing with the enemy as quickly as possible in order to prevent them from shooting you to pieces, something is wrong.

All of this has happened before.
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post #158 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 01:58 PM
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The LF rules make perfect sense in the fluff, as explained already by other posters. And on the whole CC vs shooting thing, the last time I played a lot was in early fourth ed, so I can't comment much on the whole CC v shooting. However, the few games I have played in fifth ed, it seemed to me that CC was the most vital and damaging phase of all the games.
Oh and by the way, I'll trade you Split Fire (which so far has been absolutely useless) and Counter Attack for FNP and FC.

Some codices suffer from power creep, that is a fact of 40K. But if you pair up SW against a recent codex they have no significant advantage, and in some cases they are at a disadvantage.
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post #159 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 02:39 PM
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The Long Fang rules make perfect sense assuming everyone wasn't an elite genetically modified super solider, raised from childhood for the sole purpose of war. Long Fangs appear to be the only ones who can take a sergeant who can tell 2 guys to fire at that tank, and you two guys fire at THAT tank. I mean I know this is a fiendishly difficult thing they're trying, clearly because if the sergeant dies they revert to a all firing at the same thing, unable to self determine what they should shoot at, perhaps they draw lots or something to choose a target. Presumably regular Space Marine sergeants spend their entire lives just shouting at them 'You fire at that, you fire at that you useless metal pricks' whilst his squad mates gleefully ignore him and continue all firing the same way.

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post #160 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-07-12, 03:09 PM
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So you're saying that you wouldn't make an entirely CC army because it is, essentially, useless.

Would you make an entirely shooty army?
... I give up.
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