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post #141 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-05-12, 11:55 PM
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"Close combat has more chances to take a wound"

I doubt the actual concrete statistics would back this up, in general.

Bear in mind that a lot of what you said sounds like it balances CC with shooting - but then when you bring, say, blast or template weapons into the question, then the scales are immediately tipped in favour of shooting again.

Unfortunately, it's far easier in terms of what must be rolled on the dice to kill units by shooting at them that it is to do it in CC. On average, anyway.

All of this has happened before.
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post #142 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 01:33 AM
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But then you bring in power weapons and the like and realize that 50%+ percent of the time the enemy will be in cover then you start to see why CC is so much more deadly then shooting this edition (sweeping advance means my 10 man marine squad can kill a 40 man gaurd squad by killing 3-4 gaurdman).

Only armies that are built around shooting really view shooting as the better option as marines with bolters will on average kill 2-4 guardsmen in cover for all 20 of their bolter shots, while even a battle cannon will only kill 4-5 marines if it doesn't scatter (assuming average cover as I have never allowed a opponent a un-obscured shot at my forces thanks to rhino craters.). (Note a competent opponent will almost never let you get a shot at them without cover this edition)

Case in point: All shooty marines and vinella marine armies rarly do well. As do shooty orc, and even shooty nids (This edition). Case is only some armies can pull of the over generalization that shooting is better and those are guard, tau, necrons. All other armies shine when they are the least hybrids or even when they are dedicated assault/short range.


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post #143 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 01:48 AM
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"CC is so much more deadly then shooting this edition"

Yeah, that's just plain wrong. The stats (i.e., plain and simple maths) will always show that shooting is more effective on average than CC.

All of this has happened before.
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post #144 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 04:50 AM
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CC occurs in both players turns, whilst shooting does not. That gives you a pretty massive increase in the amount of possibles wounds when you take into account ongoing assaults. So in a single turn I'd say that CC can cause more damage.

Having said that I still agree with Baltar; A well positioned 'shooty' army can shoot most turns of the game, whereas CC units will typically only be able to fight in a single significant combat each game.

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post #145 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 05:59 AM
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This is kinda pointless to whine about, Space wolves have a few nice tricks yah, but there by no means the hardest to beat army out there man just learn to play against there strength and out smart the enemy player then they will fall like bricks.
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post #146 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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didn't realise this thread was still going, hah. Well the game ended. Over all I won but with a great cost.

My army (Eldar) - took down a total of 4 units (earning me 4 kill points) but I lost 5 units...
- Lost my fire dragons to some fire from paladins at the front and wolf guard fire from the flank.
- Farseer and Dire Avengers (after dealing and taking a beating, went down to Psycannons.
- Other Dire Avengers went fled off the board after a poor Ld test.
- And lost my Banshees after some really bad luck in an assault phase against Njal and the Wolf Guard.

That left me on the board with a weapon-less Fire prism that was Tank Shocking and Ramming everything for the fun of it, Irillyth and 1 Shadow Spectre, a half a squad of Path finders and the Banshees Wave Serpent.

The Space Wolves lost 2 units in total.
-Njal and his Wolf Guard buddies went down from some Path finder, Shadow Spectre and Star cannon fire power.

With the timely aid of a purifier squad of the GKs the Long fangs got wiped down to one Plasma cannon due to templates and assaults. and Logan only had 1 wound left with a single Wolf Guard buddy (the game ended before we could deal the killing blow).

And as for the Grey Knights, they lost 2 units as well, small single units though.
- Crow (who my friend considered a joke unit) deep striked down behind my lines, so I Star-cannoned him in the face.
- and a Dreadnought, went down to the Fire Pike of the Fire Dragon Exarch.

Didn't really have a chance to deal enough damage to the Paladins and Draigo, only a few models in the unit killed. Had all the Wolf Guard to deal with, and the Gks spent half the time hiding in some woods, hah.

All in all it was a pretty good game, due to being in the middle of two armies though, my Shadow Spectres with their Jet packs, ended up jumping back and forth everywhere to take things out.

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post #147 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 07:02 PM
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Close combat has more dice, which is more fun. It's the same logic as Gears of War: the chainsaw bayonet is god-damn next-to-useless in multiplayer, but Jesus Christ the feeling when you bifurcate someone with a veritable flood of gore is frickin' awesome.

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post #148 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Close combat has more dice, which is more fun. It's the same logic as Gears of War: the chainsaw bayonet is god-damn next-to-useless in multiplayer, but Jesus Christ the feeling when you bifurcate someone with a veritable flood of gore is frickin' awesome.

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post #149 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 08:14 PM
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get it right, shooting isnt 'better' it is 'safer' you can effectively rape more face with CC alot faster then you do with shooting, due to more dice, it also has the joy of removing shooting from the equasion when stuck in combat, or the ability to run down a large squad if you sweeping them.

Shooting does less wounds per game turn, but takes less casualties overall, its Safer, not better.

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post #150 of 201 (permalink) Old 03-06-12, 08:40 PM
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Suggesting that the difference between shooting and close combat is as binary as good and bad is retarded.
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