Armada or X-wing? Fight! - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Fantasy Flight Games Covering 'Star Wars: X-Wing', 'Star Wars: Armada', Warhammer 40,000: Conquest' etc

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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-09-16, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
You've definitely been doing that, and I really appreciate it. Thank you!
No problem pal! I think it was the MK reference that got me. I got that KMFDM theme song from the movies stuck in my head and it was go time

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
You've got the one type of player who's ready to go and moves quickly, and then you've got the type of player who takes forever to make their move/take their turn.
In every game really. I used to play a lot of timed chess matches so I got used to decision making on a clock, not everyone has had that experience or wants to play so fast paced.

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
How does squad building affect movement to make it so difficult?
Different ships fly very differently from one another; there's three basic tiers to ships in X-Wing.

1. Jouster - These ships tend to play in groups/swarms and want to mass shooting against an enemy to get things done. In some instances this can mean belligerently flying 7 TIE Fighters straight at the Millennium Falcon and stripping hulls as you slow move to Range 3 then get up at Range 1 (unless you're a master flyer and get all three ranges on a joust).

2. Turret - The name says it all really: 360 degree firing arc. It can shoot you all the time and doesn't much care if you're in its firing arc (the V on the front of the ship base) unless it's got sweet ordnance. This can be one of the hardest type of ships to down because there's no safe way to approach them without being fired at unless you're flying to mess with target priority/have Autothrusters on one or more of your ships.

As a bonus, there's several ships that have auxiliary arcs like the Firespray and Ghost. These ships aren't specifically 'turret' ships but can still unleash a nasty can of worms if you try to get behind them and chase them down.

3. Arc Dodger - This is where I typically draw my definition of a fighter Ace from. Ships that have boost and barrel roll actions and sweet dials, typically involving a 90 degree 1-speed turn and a host of green maneuvers to clear stress, fall into this category. These are the kind of ships that totally ruin the day of non-turret ships.

Essentially,

Jousters beat out Turrets (massed firepower)
Turrets beat out Arc Dodgers (how can you dodge a 360 arc)
Arc Dodgers beat out Jousters (formation flying can be very easy to predict and sidestep)

Though there's always exceptionally good or bad flying that balances everything out. Regardless and back to my point, these three types of ships want to do very different types of movements and you don't typically get good at them all at once. Plus the best lists have a balance of these three things in them as far as I'm concerned. Lists that go too hard in one category tend to get swept by the category that beats them.

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
However, I do get what you're saying about the "ace" feel in X-wing.
I get where you're coming from with Ace pilots still existing in Armada but you totally get where I'm coming from with wanting to manually control said aces.

If we were apologizing profusely to each other this would be what's called a Canadian Standoff

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
I was referring to the nostalgic feeling I get when seeing Star Destroyers on the big screen or on the table top.
My girlfriend (spouse would be more appropriate at this point I think) really wanted to get into Armada because she wanted a friggin' Star Destroyer. When I got her the Raider for her Birthday last year every mention of Armada stopped

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
Having to transport/safely store even one large X-wing ship (much less several) looks like it would be a bummer/costly.
Oh man, nowhere near as bad as you think. Not only could you just leave them in their plastic packaging with an elastic band around to keep it shut and toss 'em in a bag (cheapzilla) but tackle boxes are clutch for this. I went the Battlefoam route and am happy with that but you don't need to spend much money on it.

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In the end I was wondering if the total cost was about the same, even if the start up cost wasn't.
Ah, to be sure I have spent at least as much on my X-Wing collection as I have on any 40k army and I don't have many multiples. We are the variable in this query.

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Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
maybe get a nice big canvas print of a star destroyer for the wall of your man cave?
Not nerdy enough. Let's get a scale model to hang above the table, and we can play at night and pretend the moon is the Death Star!

.....I'm only kind of joking.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-10-16, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
I just felt like I needed to emphasise how cheap it can be to get into X-Wing, when I started I picked up a couple of boxed aggressors off of ebay for £35 ($50) and that was me done. Fleet - finished, and they're by no means the cheapest ships.
Yes, this for sure is one of the biggest draws for me. The ships are very well painted, and the game looks fun to play.


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Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
40k Is still the epic throw down gaming bread and butter of my group, but we wanted a Skirmish game and X-Wing has filled that niche nicely. It's even brought half a dozen new faces into the group.
With 40k nearly dead here (at least with my friends) I think either X-wing or Armada could take root. However, I think the lower buy in cost for x-wing would make it even easier to get it going. The X-wing starter box seems to give you everything you need to play the game. As I've been researching, I've heard that (supposedly) Armada's wave 1 box doesn't give you everything you need to play the game like X-wing's starter box does. Is that true? If so what is it missing, and where do you get the rest of what you need to play? Boy if true, that would be an additional drawback to a game that already costs more to get started.


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Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
I've played a few larger team games of X-wing and had a blast too, though with only two ships that like facehugging asteroids I'm normally one of the first ones out xD
As long as you're having fun right. My time is too limited to waste in anything that I'm not having fun with.


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Originally Posted by Rush Darling View Post
Overall, if you do decide you're looking for a reasonably priced skirmish game. then I thoroughly recommend X-wing, any maybe get a nice big canvas print of a star destroyer for the wall of your man cave?
Ha ha, marriage and 4 kids later, and my man cave has been reduced to a small hovel in one corner of the garage. I'd probably have room for a nice collector card of a Star Destroyer though...






@ ntaw

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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
No problem pal! I think it was the MK reference that got me. I got that KMFDM theme song from the movies stuck in my head and it was go time
FINISH HIM!


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
In every game really. I used to play a lot of timed chess matches so I got used to decision making on a clock, not everyone has had that experience or wants to play so fast paced.
It's funny you should say that. I've thought many times I should invest in a chess timer to help games move along quicker. Nothing too obnoxious, but just something to keep things moving and prevent that one player from taking all night to think about/make their moves.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Different ships fly very differently from one another; there's three basic tiers to ships in X-Wing.
Thanks that helps a lot. I’d seen these different types being used in battle reports, but I didn’t have a recognizable category for them.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Essentially,

Jousters beat out Turrets (massed firepower)
Turrets beat out Arc Dodgers (how can you dodge a 360 arc)
Arc Dodgers beat out Jousters (formation flying can be very easy to predict and sidestep)
Makes sense. A lot of battle reports I saw seem to have players fielding either a turret with several jousters or an arc dodger with several jousters.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Though there's always exceptionally good or bad flying that balances everything out. Regardless and back to my point, these three types of ships want to do very different types of movements and you don't typically get good at them all at once.
Again, makes sense. I’m guessing the jousters are cheaper, nimbler, but not too hardy, while the turreted ships tend to be larger, slower, beefier, and less maneuverable? I'm also guessing that arc dodgers special pilots, upgrades, and maneuvers mean they coast a lot more and thus limit the number of ships you can field?


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Plus the best lists have a balance of these three things in them as far as I'm concerned. Lists that go too hard in one category tend to get swept by the category that beats them.
Like so many tabletop games, you’ll need to have the ability to deal with whatever your opponent might field. Balance in this regard, will get you farther.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
I get where you're coming from with Ace pilots still existing in Armada but you totally get where I'm coming from with wanting to manually control said aces.

If we were apologizing profusely to each other this would be what's called a Canadian Standoff
Better than a Mexican Standoff where guns are involved.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
My girlfriend (spouse would be more appropriate at this point I think) really wanted to get into Armada because she wanted a friggin' Star Destroyer. When I got her the Raider for her Birthday last year every mention of Armada stopped
Ha ha, that’s great. I’m telling you, there’s just something nostalgic/exciting about being able to field a large, gray, pie shaped, harbinger of death and destruction. That and whenever you see one, the Imperial March starts automatically playing in your head.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Oh man, nowhere near as bad as you think. Not only could you just leave them in their plastic packaging with an elastic band around to keep it shut and toss 'em in a bag (cheapzilla) but tackle boxes are clutch for this. I went the Battlefoam route and am happy with that but you don't need to spend much money on it.
Transport was always my least favorite aspect to 40k. You buy the army, then buy materials to assemble, convert, and paint your army, and then buy foam, etc. to transport your army. With both X-wing and Armada being set up on a much smaller smaller scale, transporting ones forces didn’t seem so bad (not to mention expensive) to me. That is, until I saw the larger ships for X-wing. You invest so much money into a large model, you don’t want to see it get ruined. However, paying even more money for foam would make my already strained budget be stretched even thinner. I didn't think about continuing to use the original packaging though. Great idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Ah, to be sure I have spent at least as much on my X-Wing collection as I have on any 40k army and I don't have many multiples. We are the variable in this query.
That’s what I was thinking. We gamers are notorious for wanting to collect, buy, and play with more and more models. As new models come out (if they’re cool) you know we're going to go buy them. When factoring this in, and if in the end the costs for both X-wing and Armada were approximately the same, then start up cost wouldn't be as big an issue for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Not nerdy enough. Let's get a scale model to hang above the table, and we can play at night and pretend the moon is the Death Star!

.....I'm only kind of joking.
Indeed, you know this will happen. It's just a matter of time. You'll start off with a smaller scale death star to represent the space station being off in the distance, or maybe one of these...




But it won't be long before you're sucked in father…




and father...















.

Last edited by Uber Ork; 03-10-16 at 09:45 PM.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-11-16, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
As I've been researching, I've heard that (supposedly) Armada's wave 1 box doesn't give you everything you need to play the game like X-wing's starter box does. Is that true? If so what is it missing, and where do you get the rest of what you need to play? Boy if true, that would be an additional drawback to a game that already costs more to get started.
The armada starter box (which comes with a Corvette, a Nebulon-B, and a Victory + some fighters for each side) leans pretty heavily on the Imperials - also got the individual ships didn't help too much to change the fact

Wave 2 gave us the Gladiator and the Assault Frigate Mk2 - which gave the Rebels their first "front line" ship, the nebulons and corvettes are very glass-hammery, and gave the imperials probably their most efficient ship in the gladiator.

Wave 3 brought us the Imperial Star Destroyer, Raider, the MC 80 (Ackbar) and the MC 30 - this wave brought out both heavy hitters for both sides (probably give the edge with the Rebels) an anti-fighter/corvette ship for the Imperials, which is nice - not super amazing - and the MC 30 which is probably the best small ship in the game, getting a pair of these for the rebels is probably the best thing to do for them ATM if one was planning on building a pure Rebel fleet with no Imperials.

----

For X-wing...the "it's only $15" is kinda a potential thing that you gotta worry about. http://www.amazon.com/Plano-Molding-5231-Organizer-Porsche/dp/B000HJ9514/ref=sr_1_1?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1457671080&sr=1-1&keywords=plano+storage
one of those holds

6 TIEs
3 Interceptors
1 Bomber
2 Advanced
(soon to be a 2nd bomber and a Defender)

2 A-Wings
2 B-Wings
2 X-Wings
2 7-Wings
1 Hawk

3 Z-95s
1 Starviper
1 Outrider/YT2400
1 Slave 1/Firespray

The top holds all of my dice, tokens, etc.

I have a second "bottom" the I use to carry my movement "trays" for the ships, damage deck, upgrade cards - soo many upgrade cards - and the card decks for the 3 factions (Rebels, Imperials, Scum)

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if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-11-16, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
I've thought many times I should invest in a chess timer to help games move along quicker.
They're more expensive than you might think for an OK one. I'd just get an app on a tablet/smart phone and see if that could do before spending my money getting people to play faster.

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
I’m guessing the jousters are cheaper, nimbler, but not too hardy, while the turreted ships tend to be larger, slower, beefier, and less maneuverable? I'm also guessing that arc dodgers special pilots, upgrades, and maneuvers mean they coast a lot more and thus limit the number of ships you can field?
Yes and no, there's always exceptions to the rule. Jousting ships can get expensive (named pilots, upgrades) and arc dodgers can be big too (Dash Rendar dans le YT-2400) and cheap (generic A-Wing and Interceptor pilots), but you are mostly on point with those assertions.

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
Balance in this regard, will get you farther.
Some of my favourite lists are weird balances of the three tiers and some completely ignore them. Probably my most effective one is the YV-666 (Jouster with bonus 180 degree arc) and two Twin Laser Turret Y-Wings (very consistent but slow damage in a 360 degree arc). I don't know how well it would hold up in a tournament, but it's beaten some netlists flown by competent players so far. I also really like running full on arc dodger lists, though those only work out well when I'm having good flying days.

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
When factoring this in, and if in the end the costs for both X-wing and Armada were approximately the same, then start up cost wouldn't be as big an issue for me.
I know cost is a big thing for any hobby, but you've gotta enjoy what you spend your money on. If Armada is what you're into and there's no precedent in the group, get that and start with it. If the group takes to it but wants to skirmish as well then they can pick up some X-Wing stuff. You can always borrow their ships just like they will borrow yours for games at the beginning and if you like it go from there.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-14-16, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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The armada starter box (which comes with a Corvette, a Nebulon-B, and a Victory + some fighters for each side) leans pretty heavily on the Imperials - also got the individual ships didn't help too much to change the fact
Yeah the Nebulon B doesn’t look like it can take much of a pounding. While its long range fire power seems decent for a ship of its size, it doesn’t look like it’s easy to keep your front arc pointed at the enemy and still be able to keep your distance. Especially if your enemy really wants to close with you. Now mind you I haven’t played myself, but it seems like it would be hard after watching battle reports on youtube.


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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Wave 2 gave us the Gladiator and the Assault Frigate Mk2 - which gave the Rebels their first "front line" ship, the nebulons and corvettes are very glass-hammery, and gave the imperials probably their most efficient ship in the gladiator.
Efficient because of their firepower to cost, to maneuverability, to survivability ratio, or something else?


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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
Wave 3 brought us the Imperial Star Destroyer, Raider, the MC 80 (Ackbar) and the MC 30 - this wave brought out both heavy hitters for both sides (probably give the edge with the Rebels) an anti-fighter/corvette ship for the Imperials, which is nice - not super amazing - and the MC 30 which is probably the best small ship in the game, getting a pair of these for the rebels is probably the best thing to do for them ATM if one was planning on building a pure Rebel fleet with no Imperials.
The raider seems to be more appealing for it’s speed as an objective grabber, while the MC 30’s have impressive firepower (especially when paired with Admiral Ackbar) who gives them 2 extra red dice on their side arcs.



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Originally Posted by Fallen View Post
For X-wing...the "it's only $15" is kinda a potential thing that you gotta worry about.
What do you mean? Are you saying it’s easy to keep adding ships and therefore rack up the cost of your total investment? If so I can totally see what you mean. I think that while the start up cost favors X-wing, in the end (because you'll keep adding new ships) the cost will probably pretty similar between the two.


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Nice, thanks for the link!






@ ntaw:

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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
They're more expensive than you might think for an OK one. I'd just get an app on a tablet/smart phone and see if that could do before spending my money getting people to play faster.
Great idea on the app. Although physically being able to hit the timer putting your opponent on the clock would be fun.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
Some of my favourite lists are weird balances of the three tiers and some completely ignore them. Probably my most effective one is the YV-666 (Jouster with bonus 180 degree arc) and two Twin Laser Turret Y-Wings (very consistent but slow damage in a 360 degree arc). I don't know how well it would hold up in a tournament, but it's beaten some netlists flown by competent players so far.
It seems like this is a real strength for X-wing. It’s having been out longer makes the sheer number of combinations you can field/face much greater than Armada. Although I imagine Armada will catch up some with each new wave they release.


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
I also really like running full on arc dodger lists, though those only work out well when I'm having good flying days.
”Good flying days?” You mean when all the dice roll your way?


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Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
I know cost is a big thing for any hobby, but you've gotta enjoy what you spend your money on. If Armada is what you're into and there's no precedent in the group, get that and start with it. If the group takes to it but wants to skirmish as well then they can pick up some X-Wing stuff. You can always borrow their ships just like they will borrow yours for games at the beginning and if you like it go from there.
Yes, so true. I’ve been talking with my good friend who’s been thinking about starting a squadron or fleet for one of these game systems, and we’re in agreement, both games have considerable appeal. I do think either would (forgive my pun) take off with the rest of our friends.

For grins and giggles I did some price comparisons, and while this doesn’t reflect having shopped around to find the best price, it does represent the average price range for most things. I know the starting buy in cost for each starter set favors X-wing considerably, but was wondering if after filling out your squadrons/fleets if the cost would be comparable.


First up, the basic costs…

X-Wing
$30.00 - 35.00 … For the X-wing starter box (includes an X-wing, 2 Ties, dice, etc.)

$10.00 - 15.00 … For single ships like other X-wings, Y-wings, or Ties, etc.

$20.00 - 30.00 … For medium sized ships like the Millennium Falcon or Slave 1

$25.00 – 40.00 … For multiple ship expansion packs

65.00 - 70.00 … For the really large ships like the Corellian Corvette or Imperial Raider


Armada
$65.00 - 70.00 … For the Armada core set (includes a Victory Class SD, several Tie squadrons, a Nebulon B Assault Frigate, a Corellian Corvette, several X-wing squadrons, dice, etc .)

$10.00 - 15.00 … For a single small to medium sized ship like the Rebel Nebulon B Frigate, MC30 Frigate, Corellian Corvette, or Imperial Raider, etc.

$15.00 –ish … For a fighter squadron (imperial or rebel), or the Rogues & Villains expansion pack

$20.00 - 30.00 … For a single large ship like the Imperial Gladiator or Victory class SD, or the Rebel Assault Frigate Mk. 2, or a Mon Calamari “Home One” Star Cruiser (MC80)

$30.00 - $35.00 … For an Imperial Class Star Destroyer



Next up, building a solid starting squadrons/fleets for each system…

X-Wing
Starter box ($32.50) + the Falcon & Slave 1 ($50.00) + 4 smaller ships (2 for each side = $50.00).

Total cost? $132.50

This would give you what you needed to play the game + two sizable forces per side. You’d have an X-wing, the Millennium Falcon, + 2 other small fighter sized ships for the Rebels, and 2 Tie fighters, Slave 1, + 2 other small fighter sized ships for the Empire. *As an alternative, you could also swap out the medium ships (the Falcon & Slave 1) for two smaller ships each and end up having a total of 5-6 small ships for each side. Most games I’ve seen played online were with opposing squadrons about this size.


Armada
Core box ($67.50) + a larger ship for each side ($50.00) and a small ship for each side ($25.00).

Total cost? $142.50

This would give you what you needed to play the game + two sizable forces per side. You’d have a Rebel Assault frigate Mk. 2, a Nebulon B Assault Frigate, a Corellian Corvette, a MC30 Frigate, and several squadrons of X-wings for the Rebels, and a Victory Class Star Destroyer, a Gladiator Class Star Destroyer, an Imperial Raider, and several squadrons of Tie Fighters for the Empire. Again online, this seemed to be about the size of most battles I watched…


In the end, the cost is approximately $132.50 -vs- $142.50. So while the cost for the initial box set favors X-wing, I think the final costs for either game will end up being pretty comparable.

I should add that I wasn’t going for competitive lists, but more putting together an average sized starting squadron or fleet to get an overall idea of cost.









.

Last edited by Uber Ork; 03-14-16 at 08:25 AM.
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-14-16, 05:03 PM
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Although I imagine Armada will catch up some with each new wave they release.
...and X-Wing will stay ahead with every new release just the same

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Originally Posted by Uber Ork View Post
”Good flying days?” You mean when all the dice roll your way?
Not even close, relying on dice in this game is an incredibly flawed strategy. I literally mean moving my ships better than usual (getting all my turns right and not hitting crap), anticipating my opponent effectively, and keeping the shit out of arc so that I have all the time I need to get hits through without being shot at. There's more of a chance of a blank dice result than there is of getting a 1 on a D6, it happens SO OFTEN. Not to mention the attack dice are actually made to get better results than the evade dice (one more blank on the green and one less evade result than number of hit/crit results). Dice luck is great and all, but I'd rather try to fly so good that I could roll blanks almost the whole game and still come out on top.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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