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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-03-13, 10:41 PM
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Here is a list modified from your earlier request, it also seems to fit your playstyle as well.

5 Wraithguard @160
1 Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Wraithguard @160
1 Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145

We take 2 mins squads because if 5 STR 10 shots can't kill whatever your shooting at then you have prob lost the game.
They also give you some forward durability. Problem is all the firepower is very short ranged.

5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145

I know your prob want a large fullisade after exiting the vehicle, but the Eldar have better ways to kill infantry, right now you are really lacking AT, expecially if your enemy has a fortress so we need to take some points away and work on that.

Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140

Prism tanks are the work horse of this list, make sure you keep them alive, also don't give them a Cannon.

SpiritSeer @ 70

This guy doesnt add anything to your army, but he is cheap and thats what we need. I reccomend taking Psychic Shriek as one of his spells, that way he can actually contribute.

Vyper w/ Bright Lance @ 70
Vyper w/ Bright Lance @ 70

This helps round out the AT so you don't get gimped when someone drops a Prism turn 1.

All in all that comes out to 1850 on the Dot

You will prob really regret not taking any AA in this list, especially for a tourney. Twin linked STR 6 simply won't cut it, IMO really need to drop one of the Avenger squads and grab like a Bastion instead of a Wave Serpent for the DA's, that way they can fire a Quad Gun and some Heavy Bolters while sitting in a AV 14 shell. If you get rid of the Wraithguard you could take 2 Crimson Hunters instead while still keeping the same number of Wave Serpents, simply replace them with more DA.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable


Last edited by Ragewind; 06-03-13 at 10:44 PM.
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-13, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Im replying from my phone/email, very clunky. Thats why i missed your edit, ill touch upon your points in a bit. For now here is a list, tell me what you think/want specifically so i can continue to tailor.
No worries, just pointing it out .

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Here is a “all mech” list

Farseer Bel- Annath 175

Dire Avengers 65 (Goes in Falcon)
Dire Avengers 65 (Goes in Falcon)
Dire Avengers 65 (Goes in Falcon)

Falcon 130
Bright Lance/Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Pulse Laser
Falcon 130
Bright Lance/Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Pulse Laser
Falcon 130
Bright Lance/Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Pulse Laser
Fire Prism 125
Prism Cannon

Crimson Hunter 160
Bright Lance x2, Pulse Laser
Crimson Hunter 160
Bright Lance x2, Pulse Laser
Crimson Hunter 160
Bright Lance x2, Pulse Laser

Fire Dragons x5 240
Wave Serpent, Star Cannon
Fire Dragons x5 240
Wave Serpent, Star Cannon

1845
This list is illegal, you have 4 Heavy Support choices. I also wouldn't be running Falcons; the flexibility of prisms wins out here. You need blasts to keep your opponent honest, and they're the best blast in the book.

By the way, who is Farseer Bel-Annath? Is that a Forgeworld character or something, because this is a tournament list and only a few events around here allow Forgeworld...

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
---All good points and all correct, however there are a number of factors that need to be taken into consideration. Since this particular piece of strategizing is lengthy and involved, if you stick with me I promise we will both come away learning something. A lot of what I am about to type and I’m sure further down the line I intuitively understand and might have problems articulating it correctly. Like I said stick with me and well get it done, in addition keep in mind everything I will be typing is from the Eldar army perspective.
Aight, let's see what you've got.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
I could tell you primarily play other armies, I honestly was thinking IG specifically because of your insistence on AV 12, everything you said about it vs 10 is correct and true, there are a number of other points that need to be considered though before sticking directly with a Wave serpent and their attendant “infantry” tax. A lot of how you play with the AV 10 comes down to terrain and unit placement, bolters yes, hurt them. However with the ability to premeasure and the fact you have a 36’ range largely negates the ability for small arms fire to damage you. I cannot honestly say the last time I had a unit just randomly get shot unless I specifically planned/wanted it to happen. The Venom itself is a VERY small model, in most cases a Dreadnought has a larger profile and base than the venom. By paying attention to charge/fire lanes, enemy unit’s possible movement and of course terrain and weapon range it’s entirely possible to fire without a retaliatory strike.
It's not just bolters.

Psyammo stormbolters, Pulse Rifles, Tesla Carbines, Gauss, etc all make them cry, and all have the maneuverability/range to crump them. These same guns blank on AV12. Not to mention ubiquitous guard blobs which just autocannon/quad gun them to death.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Something like a Wave serpent, in terms of brute force tactics, is a fantastic addition. Its large bulk can prevent charges, provide cover for units behind, it can also now bring to bear a large amount of fire power as well. Assuming you give it a SL you are looking at a promised 7 str 6 TL-shots, with the addition of a possible extra 1-6 shots every other turn via its field.
Ok, I said that...

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
However it presents a very large target, while it indeed can no longer be dropped by a single pen, most units that would fire at a Wave serpent will be bringing multi shot weapons to bear such as auto cannons.
A reasonable point, but I've already demonstrated how silly survivable Serpents are against stuff like Autocannons, it was 0.44444 pens/glances before my 4+ cover save (so 0.22222 pens per autocannon). That's 13.5 autocannons required to down a single Serpent (27 shots required). Not many armies bring that much firepower. The scariest things to them are probably things like Manticores, but even then I have my 4+ cover save.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
In terms of a Venom vs a Wave serpent you can position the tiny Venom in such a way as to > completely < negate return fire. So tell me, is it better to be shot and face tank the damage or to not be shot in the first place?
Actually, if you're hiding your venom then my army literally gives zero shits about it. If your opponent has set up their army correctly, the Venom jumps out, nails a few marines, and then dies to another units fire, and that's assuming they didn't mech up to negate poison. If your venom is hiding because my units are supporting each other correctly, then it does nothing.

I'd rather have a unit which allows me to shoot with impunity than 3 units which require the table to not be a moonscape (remember, this is a tournament list, and tournaments usually have a sizable number of poor tables that Venoms are useless on. I'd rather not drop a number of places because of a bad table).

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Obviously the second one is superior not only in terms of tactics but in terms of endurance.
Uhh... I don't see how letting your opponent dictate board control is good tactics, but whatevs.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
As an example, excluding specific circumstances, it is possible to continually get a 3+ cover save on a venom by proper placement of its facings.
I can guarantee a 3+ cover save just by going flat out... and my opponent can't just move slightly to the side in order to negate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Whereas with a serpent this is very hard due to its bulk, for units like the Crimson Hunter (which you are currently unsure of) they are able to bring down the Serpent with one round of shooting (barring saves).
Actually, the Crimson Hunter doesn't drop a Serpent on average.

4 BS4 shots (I'm mathing off the loadout you suggested) gives 2.66667 hits, which at S8 gives 1.33333 pens/glances. Then I take my 4+ cover save, and that goes down to 0.666667 glances/pens, and then I have Serpent's shield.

So your 160pt plane is lucky to get a single glance- hardly bringing down the Serpent in one round of shooting.

Also, don't ignore saves; that's just silly- that's kinda what makes this list good. If it weren't for essentially non-conditional 4+ cover saves on every tank, I'd agree that my original list is bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
In addition 3 venom’s require at least 3 separate units to shoot and kill, whereas the Serpent only requires one unit’s shooting phase, for the simple fact that it requires more effort on behalf of the opponent makes it that much more effective and valuable tactic.
This is probably your best point, yes Venoms do have inherent MSU survivability in generating overkill- thats why DE mech works. However, this is completely negated by the lack of saturation when mixing with Wave Serpents- it just means that anti infantry guns start plinking hullpoints off your venoms whilst dedicated AT gets to work on your serpents- you lose the benefit of essentially rendering entire swathes of your opponent's army useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
While the Serpent may be twice as survivable as a Venom in a straight up fight, you are almost bring 3 Venoms + Troops along for the cost of a single serpent. This results in 3 times the fire power than the serpent and when using tricks such as proper placement and lanes of fire the venom can be just as survivable.
They took twice as much firepower to dent, and have half as many hullpoints- before saves. your venom can only guarantee a 5+ cover save, holofields gives my unit a 4+ jink save- so the serpent comes out on top. Also, your opponents bring far more guns which are able to hurt your Venoms, my opponents have far fewer shots that are even capable of hurting me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Also yes I would be bringing along three wracks of three men each, however their purpose is simply to score nothing else. I don’t need a full 10 man squad to grab a objective, as such we need just enough to live.
You don't need 10 on the objective, but you need at least one alive. You've got to be kidding yourself if you think 3 man wrack units are going to survive the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Even if the Venom itself exploded they only take a Str 3 hit, meaning wounds on 5’s, followed by a 6+ save followed by a 5+ FNP. Whereas the 10 man Avenger squad will take hits on a 3, and then get a 4+ save. This equates less than 1 Wrack dead on average and 3-4 Avengers dead on average. In this example you lost enough DA’s to make a LD check whereas the wracks are still at full capacity.
Actually, this is wrong on multiple levels.

To start with, Open Topped vehicles now have S4 explosions, not S3- the S3 caveat was lost in the transition to 6th edition. Check it if you don't believe me. So your wracks are wounded on a 4+. So actually it's more like 0.83333 wracks killed, and then they're standing in a crater, probably about to die.

The Dire Avengers are incredibly unlikely to suffer explosion hits at all thanks to the Serpent's Shield. Downgrading pens ftw. So the majority of the time it's zero Avengers killed, and now they're standing behind a wreck, where (hopefully) the opponent can't see all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
So far all this is just to drive home that were are multiple vectors of thought for each decision not only as why to include a particular unit but what units opposing armies might bring and how that decision would fair. As an example a IG player with all their Chimeras would simply inexorably move forward downfield, you mentioned pushing for objectives, and yes, if I was fighting against such a army I would let you claim as many objectives as you want. At the end of the day I simply need to control 1 more than you, and thus my strategy would focus around removing only sections of your army and avoiding the rest, I simply need to control one more objective than you. I know I mentioned it before by playing Smart and not hard is the way to go, as a example I have a Space Wolf friend who runs with Bjorn the Fell Handed, if the opportunity presents itself he will let Bjorn die and become a new objective on the table to break ties or to prevent a loss.
This "Play smart, not hard" business is nonsense- I can do both. I take a list which is hard as nails, and then play it smart. Why choose between the two? tbh, this sort of mentality is why I usually avoid dealing with Eldar players, it's symptomatic of people who play the army.

It's the same as the "It's a finesse unit/army!" bullcrap that so many people spout- I can take any substandard unit, and use my skill to beat people with it. Or, I can take a good/hard unit, apply the same skill level to that, and absolutely crush them. It's the same thing, except that by taking the harder unit I increase the amount of power I have that my skill can be applied to- it's like a force multiplier. Then when I come up against people who are as skilled as I am, I have the tools to beat them- if I took these substandard units and tried to use them against someone of equal skill, then I will lose- there is no contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
As for a “reasonable scoring” unit that varies dramatically from person to person (so is hard to talk about), 3 wracks are enough to me to win objectives games, they might not have enough “Oomph” for others. Unlike Space marines where the troops do the majority of heavy lifting the Eldar don’t have that so grabbing large units of troops is often wasteful. Instead of using a machete you can use a scalpel and achieve the same (or better) result.
If you don't have good troops, then your codex is bad. That's the long and short of it. Eldar and DE troops are more than capable of heavy lifting- DAs and jetbikes put out pretty serious firepower and are backed up by awesome buffs. Wraithguard as well. From what I've seen, the best DE lists make heavy use of Warriors in Raiders, which easily manage to do the heavy lifting.

In fact, the only army in the game which has troops truly incapable of heavy lifting is probably Chaos Daemons- and these guys basically never see podium ever since they lost easy-mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
As for the terrain, I too have been the victim of terrible tourney setups, so I understand where you are coming from, however we DO have the option to bring our own terrain. I often run with a Fortress or a Bastion for LOS blocking purposes. With the right setup you can completely deny a alpha strike utilizing a fortress or mitigate it on key units by using a Landing Pad. If you don’t want to bring one that’s fine but you are missing out on some tactical applications.
So if I bring a 125pt bastion or 250pt GI Joe playset, then my 'budget' Venoms work better? Again, you're throwing more points after bad, why not just run the serpents and have moar dude?

Also, fortifications that aren't flexible like the ADL are super awkward to deploy at tournaments, considering pre-placed terrain and wotnot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
While you are correct in your description of mech, there is more to the term “resilient” simply being able to facetank damage, in my earlier explanation on the Venom you are not only able to easily hide it but to get a 3+ cover save easy enough, all while maintaining DPS.
But a Venom with a 3+ cover save (I guess you're taking a ruin, and then blocking LoS to the hull whilst poking the gun up top?) is still less resilient than a Serpent with a 4+ cover save- again using my autocannon yardstick- the venom takes 0.2963 hullpoints and the Serpent takes 0.222222 hullpoints- and my serpent still can't be one-shotted, and it has more hullpoints, and gets a 3+ save simply by parking behind a ruin itself- which means that the HPs taken by the Serpent goes down to 0.149HPs, almost half that of the Serpent, also maintaining DPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
In terms of Tau and the Cannons, I can just say something like “just kill the Gun emplacement, blah blah blah” its actually very hard to to something like that when facing off against a skilled player. Since you cannot control which AA units or the placement of such AA units that your enemy takes you just need to focus on what you can control. “average” GW terrain can go as high as 7-8 inches off the table, for a Flyer that isn’t a Stormraven it is fairly easy to either hide behind LOS blocking terrain upon entry (for that interceptor) or at least get a cover save that isn’t a Jink save (for those Hydras). A good example would be the fortress (and its 12 inch tower), with proper placement you can get the opponent to hit a facing that is what they cannot see and thus get a 3+/2+ cover save on a flyer or of course prevent the shot entirely.
What? I don't think I've ever played on a table where it was possible to generate more than a 5+ cover save on a flyer, and I usually play with GW ruins when practicing. Maybe a 4+ if there's a ruin around, and that is not enough to prevent interceptor guns from suppressing your plane.

If you're bringing the GI Joe playset to give cover to a flyer, then a) you're throwing more points into a unit, b) are making it difficult for your own flyer to use it's guns when it comes down, (so interceptor becomes somewhat moot, since you are far less able to deal with my AA before my own shooting phase) and c) are limiting the movement of your flyer to a very specific, narrow channel, which makes it easy to predict.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Also you mention that you need to hit the table after opposing flyers…so go second? If you win the roll off defer to the opponent, if you lose chances are they will be happy with going first. There are units you can take to modify this roll in various armies, if you REALLY want to stack the deck in your favor, and while even I advocate the use of twin linked shots for AA purposes, it is more of a desperate tactic than one that can be relied upon (like using a sniper for AT)
Going second hardly guarantees that you hit the table after them- What if they fail their reserve rolls? A 3+ is hardly infallible. Not to mention reserves manipulation- Scriers gaze is a ridiculous buff to have, and makes it pretty damn easy to do this.

Not to mention, you need to win the roll off for first turn in order to go second- your opponent will recognise that you invested 480pts in AV10 flyers, and if they win, they go second. So you're behind the 8 ball half the time, and in the other half when things are working out for you it can still go wrong pretty easily? Seems bad... But still not sure. Definitely wouldn't take 3.

Twin-Linking is a perfectly viable source of AA, especially when you do it en mass, and is hardly 'desperate' at all.

If we assume that the scatter laser hits are evenly distributed amongst Serpents (a bit of a stretch, but it simplifies the maths) it averages something like 6.1111111111 + 4.583333333= 10.694444444 S6 hits which gets 1.78 glances against AV12, 3.56 pens/glances against AV11, and 5.3477777777 pens/glances against AV10. This is across the army. Then take into account that you can still drop the shields to get 5+5D6 S7 shots which averages 22.5 S7 TL shots across the army which gives 3.75+3.125= 6.875 S7 hits, which then comes to 2.291666667 pens/glances against AV12, 3.4375 pens/glances against AV11, and 4.583333333333 pens/glance against AV10.

This means that you average 4.071666666666 pens/glances on AV12, 6.997 against AV11 and 9.93111111 against AV10. Clearly, this shows that the Serpentsare pretty handy at dealing with AV10 flyers, and can still crump a couple of Night Scythes per turn. It's a bit dicey against Drakes and Vendettas, but with your 12" move (since you're snapfiring anyways) you're pretty capable of getting into their rear arcs. This really just leaves Stormravens, but even then the maths shows you can hullpoint one, even with Jink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
As I briefly mentioned at the start, its important because that is how you are going to translate your tactics, while none of the points you bring up are incorrect they aren’t very…Sly…if that makes any sense. It has a very “imperial” way of going about it.
There's a reason so many imperial players place at events, and it's not because their codices are OP.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
See this is what I am talking about, it is not as simple as you make it out to be. With your opening statement of “ I’ll shoot/charge them by being on objectives” its not that simple. If I am hugging terrain and performing hit and run on you, you WILL NOT be able to retaliate. That’s the beauty of our jetbikes, and the playstyle it encapsulates. You also mention about pushing into my DZ, I was simply talking about the troops units, you still have the rest of the army to deal with and as such that won’t be happening, its actually very optimistic on your part. As for the going second, I believe I covered it above but that is not a hard thing to do, however as I also mentioned I only would need to handle one more objective than you. It’s a simple thing to cut out a small portion of your army and win by mission than to take on the whole thing and be everywhere. Using Jetbikes this is a easy thing to do, using Dire Avengers or even Wraithguard not so much. These two units require a different style of army that you want to use.
If you're hitting and running away, then you're not on the objective. That is my point.

You also seem to assume that the table is nothing but LoS blocking terrain, which is a false assumption.

Your jetbikes have a 12" range gun (oh, plus a Shuriken Cannon I guess). This means that even if you roll the best possible roll on your JSJ move, you're still only 24" away after maybe killing a marine. It's much more likely that you end up like 18" away, and you're assuming the 6-7" move you roll up will put you behind some convenient LoS blocking terrain. Great, just don't put your objectives too close to LoS blocking terrain? and you're still not taking objectives from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
You say “even more points” like I am asking you to invest 200. The COMM relay was simply a suggestion but is not needed, its used to stack the deck in your favor if you don’t think a 5+ for reserves is good enough. The two Autarchs themselves are already included in the list so there is no additional expenditure of points. As for the DA you can do that exactly one time (on average) or once every other turn, whereas the Bikes can do this continuously or even move 48 in one turn rather than JsJ.
Considering the Autarchs do nothing outside of reserves manipulation, spending that amount of points on them is ridiculous, why not get more dudes? There is additional expenditure as you are taking more than the minimum required for your HQ slots.

I've made a list here that simply does not require reserves manipulation.

The DA do that one time, and then next turn mech back up and drive off, and which point they can be faster than the Windriders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Mech the way you want to play it doesn’t work quite as well for the Eldar because our troops are bad for the most part. Unlike the IG or Grey Knights you can’t roll on up in a tank, drop out a unit and pop a tank/unit. In fact for most mech armies the general rule is “Don’t get out of the tank unless you get shot out”, as such you typically don’t want to load up on the troops, you want to take min sized with maybe a special weapon like a Melta, which the Eldar cannot do unless you use Storm Guardians.
Only a couple of armies can play "hide in my boxes" anymore. That's how 5th edition worked, but it doesn't work in 6th- you need to use your infantry. This is as true for GK and IG, it's true for Eldar as well. DE can do it owing to the fact that they're open topped. All armies need a solid core of troops, MSU as a full list concept is dead.

MSU is no longer a list archetype- it's a tactic.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
You lost me at “The DA squads im suggesting come to 275 points”, that is neither cheap or efficient. The only thing they can do is kill some infantry model and probably lose 3-4 guys in a vehicle explosion. While your option is NOT A BAD OPTION, it is most certainly not the best, not for this playstyle. Again Jetbikes can at least take a cannon and hunt some armor from range all for less than 5 Avengers cost without upgrades. If you want the serpents that’s ok, but you most certainly don’t need to kit those squads out. Something like turning that 275 point squad into a 195 point squad is called efficiency.
You may have a point here, for now I'll keep the full sized squads but I can see how I may shift to smaller squads. Still not sold on it though.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
As mentioned in my other post I did not see the edit, tis the curse of using a mobile. As for the Autarch I’m scared to live in your world where a WS 6INT 6, 5+ attacks at Str 6 AP 3..3+/4++ with Hit and Run, Shoruding+Stealth (with re-rolls) AND Melta gun + Rending catas is “not that strong in combat”all for around 140 points.
He has a 3+ save in combat. Lets say that again. He has a 3+ save in combat. And only T4. Pretty easy to torrent down 3 MEQ wounds in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Without even going into tactical usage he is more than capable in handling nearly everything on the table. Of course you don’t send him against Termies, basically anything without a 2+ armor save cannot handle him. Even a squad of Halberd grey knights will be cut to less than half of a 10 man squad by taking one of his shooting+charges and that squad is easily worth 220+.
Your maths is out. 3.3333 hits gives 2.7777777 wounds. Lets just assume you killed a GK with the meltagun on the way in. So you kill 3, maybe 4? Congrats. The Halberd GK now strike at I6 with 10 Attacks. 5 hits. 2.5 wounds. 1.25 wounds go through the invulnerable save. Then you get Force Weaponed. Congrats, your 140pt dude suicided himself to kill like 70-90pts of dude?

Capable of handling anything on the table, eh? How about like 30 Ork Boyz? MCs? Dreadnoughts? Anything with the speed to charge him first? Chaos Spawn? Hell, Grey Hunters?

I guess this guy can beat down on tactical marines, but even then he's not that great at it

And before you point out H&R, the H&R roll is usually only going to be enough to put you like 10", and if you survive, then you countercharged.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Normally there is not any “return attacks” to “crush” him, from the way you typing I get the feeling you have not actually used him in this way before, I recommend using just one (they work best in pairs) and see how useful he is. Also vector strike still won't kill him, sitting at Str 6 or 7, and he still gets a 4+ invul on it.
You can't have two of these- you're only allowed one MOTLG. The second one gets shot without it.

A vector strike mightn't kill him outright, but they do put wounds on him pretty well, and he only has 3. The same rule applies for anything that ignores cover- Divination gives this guy a bad time.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Yes everything you said is true but WHAT DOES HE BRING to your list specifically? If we were to take a Farseer what >Specific< reason are you taking him>? Is there a particular spell you want? A particular squad you want buffed? You don’t just take a Farseer “just because” he’s ML 3. In a Mech style list a Hunter Killer Autarch is one of the best setups you can take as it does not require the synergy other others need and can function independently behind enemy lines
Note that I never spoke about Farseers in my list, I thought you were still talking about jetbikes.

I took a Spiritseer because it's better than both for mech.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Care to go further in detail? What exactly are they removing from the overall list by not starting on the table? Are you trying to get a good alpha strike going? Your response is akin to say “just because” and stopping right there. Help me, Help you, give me what you’re looking for exactly and I can provide a useful list.
Essentially the fact that your opponent has more firepower available to him for more time earlier in the game is a bad thing. It means you have fewer shots throughout the course of the game to deal with his stuff, as well as having poor redundancy and saturation early on.

On a similar note, AV10 planes do not help with your saturation of AV12. They have similar resiliences against ground based targets, but as soon as Skyfire is introduced then that completely changes in favour of the Serpent.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
They are, they are exactly what we need in a MBT.
At least we agree on something.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Here is a list modified from your earlier request, it also seems to fit your playstyle as well.

5 Wraithguard @160
1 Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Wraithguard @160
1 Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145

We take 2 mins squads because if 5 STR 10 shots can't kill whatever your shooting at then you have prob lost the game.
They also give you some forward durability. Problem is all the firepower is very short ranged.

5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145
5 Dire Avengers @ 65
Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-Fields @ 145

I know your prob want a large fullisade after exiting the vehicle, but the Eldar have better ways to kill infantry, right now you are really lacking AT, expecially if your enemy has a fortress so we need to take some points away and work on that.

Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields @ 140

Prism tanks are the work horse of this list, make sure you keep them alive, also don't give them a Cannon.

SpiritSeer @ 70

This guy doesnt add anything to your army, but he is cheap and thats what we need. I reccomend taking Psychic Shriek as one of his spells, that way he can actually contribute.

Vyper w/ Bright Lance @ 70
Vyper w/ Bright Lance @ 70

This helps round out the AT so you don't get gimped when someone drops a Prism turn 1.

All in all that comes out to 1850 on the Dot

You will prob really regret not taking any AA in this list, especially for a tourney. Twin linked STR 6 simply won't cut it, IMO really need to drop one of the Avenger squads and grab like a Bastion instead of a Wave Serpent for the DA's, that way they can fire a Quad Gun and some Heavy Bolters while sitting in a AV 14 shell. If you get rid of the Wraithguard you could take 2 Crimson Hunters instead while still keeping the same number of Wave Serpents, simply replace them with more DA.
The above list is actually something I could get behind, although I don't love the Vypers, not sure what I'd replace the with though, so I guess they're alright. I think 3 prisms, 10 S10 Wraithguard along with mass S6 is plenty of antitank.

I still feel the original list is better, and I'll be testing that, but I could see the list moving to this. Will definitely be keeping this in my back pocket.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-13, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Actually starting to consider Guardian Defenders over Dire Avengers, thoughts? Cheaper, shorter ranged, but bring a heavy weapon...

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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-13, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by coke123 View Post
Actually starting to consider Guardian Defenders over Dire Avengers, thoughts? Cheaper, shorter ranged, but bring a heavy weapon...

Thats a tough call without more detail; with the way you want to run the army Guardians wont fit in well, the Heavy weapon is nice but your going to have to sacrifice something in the overall weave to fit that in. If you tell me why you want them Exactly and what you plan on them doing I might be able to make a informed suggestion.

-------------------

I won't be able to respond to your points in detail until this evening, however until then here is a excersie which will help you come to a decision for your list. Below is a mix list basedon yours/mine playstyle, can you tell me exactly why each unit was brought and their role in the force as a whole?

*Bonus points if you can spell out in detail what they are supposed to do, the hints are all there.(anyone else following this post is free to chip in)


Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields

Fortress 250
Krakstorm Missiles, Icarus Cannon

Fire Dragons 130
Exarch, Fast Shot
Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Fire Dragons 130
Exarch, Fast Shot
Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Farseer 100 (Warlord)
Rolls on Divination

Shas'O 120
Sensor Suite, Puretide Chip

Kroot x18 108
Kroot Rifles

Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
Dire Avengers x5 65
Avenger Catapults

Jetbikes 61
Shuiken Cannon
Jetbikes 61
Shuriken Cannon

1850

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-04-13, 04:06 PM
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The issue I have with guardians is the 12" range. If guardians are in range to shoot, they're in range to get easily assaulted, and that's not a good place for guardians to be. They just can't stand up to HTH very well. And DA are VERY survivable with an exarch bringing the Shimmershield. However, if you just want an objective camper, Guardians are pretty good, using the platform for sniping, and hugging the ruins. If they can get a conceal warlock with them, they are rather survivable. But they're not going to be as offensively useful as DA.
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Thats a tough call without more detail; with the way you want to run the army Guardians wont fit in well, the Heavy weapon is nice but your going to have to sacrifice something in the overall weave to fit that in. If you tell me why you want them Exactly and what you plan on them doing I might be able to make a informed suggestion.
Basically they're cheaper DA. They shore up antitank a bit, and they can affect the game beyond 24", which DA struggle to do. Also, swapping out for guardians with a bright lance gets me enough points for a warlock each, which is pretty tasty.

I agree that it's a tough call, especially since I own 20 Guardians and 20 Dire Avengers, and don't particularly feel like overspending financially

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
I won't be able to respond to your points in detail until this evening, however until then here is a excersie which will help you come to a decision for your list. Below is a mix list basedon yours/mine playstyle, can you tell me exactly why each unit was brought and their role in the force as a whole?

*Bonus points if you can spell out in detail what they are supposed to do, the hints are all there.(anyone else following this post is free to chip in)


Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields
Fire Prism 140
Holo-Fields

Fortress 250
Krakstorm Missiles, Icarus Cannon

Fire Dragons 130
Exarch, Fast Shot
Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Fire Dragons 130
Exarch, Fast Shot
Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Farseer 100 (Warlord)
Rolls on Divination

Shas'O 120
Sensor Suite, Puretide Chip

Kroot x18 108
Kroot Rifles

Serpent 135
Tl-Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
Dire Avengers x5 65
Avenger Catapults

Jetbikes 61
Shuiken Cannon
Jetbikes 61
Shuriken Cannon

1850
OK, I'll bite.

Fire Prisms are just retardedly good generalists, they can kill pretty much anything short of an MC or flyer, so they're a no brainer. They don't fill a particular role, they just do a whole heap of stuff at high efficiency.

GI Joe playset is a LoS blocker that you hide your mech behind. It puts out decent firepower but I still don't think it's worth it.

Fire Dragons kill tanks. Their Serpents kill light mech and heavy infantry.

The Farseer buffs... I have no idea what he buffs, since you have no good targets, but I'm guessing either the FD or the Kroot? Leaning towards Kroot.

Shas'o is a substandard build- in fact I don't see the point in the Tau at all. I guess he gives Tank Hunters to Jetbikes? Seems lame. You don't have any missile suits so he's kinda pointless. If he's meant to be giving Tank Hunters to FDs, then that's bad, since he can't get in their car. The Sensor Suite makes me think you might be doing this as well, but you just can't deliver it.

Wait, are you trying to make a Kroot deathstar or something? Are you high?

I guess the Kroot infiltrate with attached characters, who then buff them? This won't work... Bad idea. Probably worse than the FDs, considering that's at least a combo.

The 5 Avengers in a Serpent are trying to pretend they're resilient, but fail to reach saturation point.

the Jetbikes are a poor, token attempt at scoring.

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The issue I have with guardians is the 12" range. If guardians are in range to shoot, they're in range to get easily assaulted, and that's not a good place for guardians to be. They just can't stand up to HTH very well. And DA are VERY survivable with an exarch bringing the Shimmershield. However, if you just want an objective camper, Guardians are pretty good, using the platform for sniping, and hugging the ruins. If they can get a conceal warlock with them, they are rather survivable. But they're not going to be as offensively useful as DA.
Yeah, pretty much my sentiments. Although 35pts for a Exarch with PW and Shimmershield? I'd rather just hug cover tbh and save myself those points; it's pretty damn expensive.

Thing is, 10 Guardians with Bright Lance and Warlock comes in at around the same cost as 10 Dire Avengers, but is more survivable in cover thanks to Shrouded. They can also affect the game outside of 24" as i said before, and they can threaten tanks (Bright Lance, and I have points to give each Warlock a Singing Spear, 12" S9 is pretty good for half a Fire Warrior).

It was funny last edition when DAs could beat assault terminators in combat with Shimmershield and Defend, but IIRC they lost defend? I'm in a lecture atm and can't pull out my codex to check .

But yeah, maybe the overexposure isn't worth it. Then again, with Battle Focus + Fleet they're actually not that likely to get assaulted, it's more about failing Shrouding when I'm in Rapid Fire range. Bolters are probably more concerning than assaults.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-05-13, 05:27 PM
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detailed responses forthcoming

As for the guardians, you can still actually give them a serpent, so if you want to take just 10 guys with a Bright Lance or something then you should still be able to have the same amount of tanks on the table. When you start adding in the Warlocks then it gets expensive, I would play test both and see what really works for your particular playstyle.

----

Interesting, I'll be honest I was hoping for a bit more but lets continue.

Hiding Mech, correct. Since they create their own 4+ cover saves you can grant a annex a cover save if need be. Of course they do whatever, whenever you need it. However the early focus is enemy AT that can tackle the annex's after that any 2+ saves that start getting close.

Dragon's go in the Annexes with the Cannon and Missiles, Shas'o goes with one dragon squad and Seer goes with the other. If we are lucky we get Perfect timing and both Annexes ignore Cover on their shots. If something big shows up like a Trygon they can get out and fry it as point defense, the seer can also grab Psychic Shriek to help with that.

Cannon handles transports and AA and if you get some precision shots you can gimp a Lascannon marine or something. No cover saves vs these shots.

Shas'O goes with the Cannon for tank Hunters and the Missiles are ordnance. With a Barrage 2, TL, Ignores Cover Str 8 Barrage you should be able to handle vehicles and infantry in equal measure. (you can also nail enemy Serpents in their back arc to bypass the shield)

Dragon's tanks become mobile gun platforms and dance at range, fairly correct on the targets although priority targets are anything fast such as enemy bikes or enemy MC's.

Kroot do whatever you want, they are their primarily as a denial unit to prevent Infiltrating and deepstriking close to the fortress. Fanning them out enough you can prevent anything from dropping down while ringing the fortress. If the enemy is outflanking a dangerous unit you can use them to block off a section of the table near the fortress and force them to come on a good distance away.

Avengers can sit in the tank or can be in the center annex, their tank performs mobile firepower. Basically they do whatever you feel is needed, mostly they perform point defense.

Jetbikes Jsj and as you said score vs long distance objectives.. If the enemy has long range barrage you can either hide under a overhang or stick them in either of the center annexes.

Obviously you start out of the fortress then move in to prevent anyone from alpha striking the bunkers (can't shoot a unoccupied bunker) if you feel the need. If a bunker itself gets downed you can use the remains for the Tanks/Jetbikes/Jetpacks to prevent them from being assaulted(unless assaulted by a unit that can go on impassible terrain)

Unless you are messing with me, I see a lack of ability to discern roles and synergy. If you want a serious tourny list with the Eldar you are going to want to be able to see exactly why spamming a certain unit like the Serpents is not the best option. Even a subpar unit, when used correctly, will get the job done, very similar to what you were mentioning before, at least in concept.

While this list was a quick pick example and made for this purpose do you think your initial list, or even the one I suggested, is capable of downing this in an objective or KP mission and why? Would you want to go first or second vs this list and what would be the target priority and how would your list go about killing in that order? What would you change about your list if you see any major problems and how would you fare in the three main deployment options. While its not entirely relevant for this discussion let's assume your opponent placed the fortress in a weird configuration (parts just need to be touching, can be placed however you want), how would your list fair if the weapon annexes were surrounded/blocked by other parts of the fortress etc etc.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-06-13, 02:03 AM
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This list is illegal, you have 4 Heavy Support choices. I also wouldn't be running Falcons; the flexibility of prisms wins out here. You need blasts to keep your opponent honest, and they're the best blast in the book.

By the way, who is Farseer Bel-Annath? Is that a Forgeworld character or something, because this is a tournament list and only a few events around here allow Forgeworld...
Farseer Bel-Annath is Forgeworld. Psyker with access to Divination/Telepathy/Pyromancy. Also allows for some FoC changes, such as allowing a 4th Heavy Support to be taken at the cost of an Elites slot (I think). So if FW units are allowed, then that list is legal.
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Interesting, I'll be honest I was hoping for a bit more but lets continue.
Uh... I'm going to be blunt- This is getting really condescending. This isn't primary school, and being disappointed in substandard homework is a little odd.

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Hiding Mech, correct. Since they create their own 4+ cover saves you can grant a annex a cover save if need be. Of course they do whatever, whenever you need it. However the early focus is enemy AT that can tackle the annex's after that any 2+ saves that start getting close.
A+?

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Dragon's go in the Annexes with the Cannon and Missiles, Shas'o goes with one dragon squad and Seer goes with the other. If we are lucky we get Perfect timing and both Annexes ignore Cover on their shots. If something big shows up like a Trygon they can get out and fry it as point defense, the seer can also grab Psychic Shriek to help with that.

Cannon handles transports and AA and if you get some precision shots you can gimp a Lascannon marine or something. No cover saves vs these shots.

Shas'O goes with the Cannon for tank Hunters and the Missiles are ordnance. With a Barrage 2, TL, Ignores Cover Str 8 Barrage you should be able to handle vehicles and infantry in equal measure. (you can also nail enemy Serpents in their back arc to bypass the shield)
Wait, so you're telling me that for the low, low price of 740pts I too can have a vehicle that can't move, but shoots 1 TL Ignores Cover Tank Hunter Lascannon and two TL S8 AP3 (highly conditional) Ignores Cover Ordnance Barrages? And when this vehicle gets assaulted it not only can't protect it's occupants, but actually amplifies the damage inflicted on them?

And you think 275pts for DAs in a serpent is inefficient? This is the definition of inefficiency.

The reason I didn't see this 'synergy' is two fold-

a) It's not a synergy- It's a combo. There's a small but important difference you need to understand, I'll expand on that later.

b) It's so woefully inefficient that I didn't even consider it as a viable option. Compare it to any amount of firepower brought by pretty much any firepower unit in the game and you'll see how awful it is.

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Kroot do whatever you want, they are their primarily as a denial unit to prevent Infiltrating and deepstriking close to the fortress. Fanning them out enough you can prevent anything from dropping down while ringing the fortress. If the enemy is outflanking a dangerous unit you can use them to block off a section of the table near the fortress and force them to come on a good distance away.
You don't have enough Kroot to manage this. Also, it's not just Deep Strikers you need to worry about, but pretty much any form of mech carrying guys with grenades- they'll zoom right up to your Fortress, jump out and gun down the kroot. Next turn they throw a bunch of grenades inside your fortress next turn, and then whatever was inside is dead (and you don't have your combo anymore).

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Obviously you start out of the fortress then move in to prevent anyone from alpha striking the bunkers (can't shoot a unoccupied bunker) if you feel the need. If a bunker itself gets downed you can use the remains for the Tanks/Jetbikes/Jetpacks to prevent them from being assaulted(unless assaulted by a unit that can go on impassible terrain)
Wait, what? If you do that then you're not shooting one of the emplaced weapons next turn- only the commander is relentless and those guns are heavy... So your opponent cares even less?

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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Unless you are messing with me, I see a lack of ability to discern roles and synergy. If you want a serious tourny list with the Eldar you are going to want to be able to see exactly why spamming a certain unit like the Serpents is not the best option. Even a subpar unit, when used correctly, will get the job done, very similar to what you were mentioning before, at least in concept.
You didn't understand what I said at all. I was saying that the application of skill gives an equal increase in power to all units- so "You just need to use it well" is not a valid argument. If you apply good skill to a bad unit compared to applying good skill to a good unit, then the good unit is still always going to be more powerful. There's not magic point where a level of skill applied pays off more for one unit than another- a sub par unit is always sub par.

You haven't actually said why spamming is bad, you've just said that if you play well you can make bad units work, which is true, but irrelevant, and then posted some seriously non-competitive lists.

Secondly, this is not a lack of ability to discern synergy- you have presented no synergies. You have presented combos, and bad ones at that. Do you understand the difference?

A synergy is two elements working together to create greater advantage than the sum of the two elements would suggest. The important thing here is that the two units still need to be capable of working by themselves, but they are capable of creating advantage by working together.

An example of a synergy be something like "My Dire Avengers shoot up some marines and then my Striking Scorpions charge them"- Note that the Dire Avengers are still pretty good at shooting stuff and Striking Scorpions are pretty good at killing marines in combat, without requiring the support of each other, but they do generate advantage with unison.

A combo is a combination of elements used to create some effect, usually damage, but sometimes movement (as in the case of IC slingshotting. However, the difference between a combo and a synergy is that if any one of the elements fails, then the entire combo fails- the elements are dependent on each other. Your Fortress of Redemption is a prime example of this. If your Farseer doesn't get the ignores cover, then the power plummets. If I kill the unit manning the krakstorms (not hard, btw), the krakstorms stop shooting- I effectively 2-for-1 you, and I get a massive tempo advantage.

That's not to say that all combos are bad- if they're cheap and redundant enough then they can be pretty good. Examples of good combos are things like a Tau Iridium PENchip Commander on a Quad Gun, or PBS and Pinning weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
While this list was a quick pick example and made for this purpose do you think your initial list, or even the one I suggested, is capable of downing this in an objective or KP mission and why? Would you want to go first or second vs this list and what would be the target priority and how would your list go about killing in that order? What would you change about your list if you see any major problems and how would you fare in the three main deployment options. While its not entirely relevant for this discussion let's assume your opponent placed the fortress in a weird configuration (parts just need to be touching, can be placed however you want), how would your list fair if the weapon annexes were surrounded/blocked by other parts of the fortress etc etc.
Well, there's too many variables there to really say, but-

My list is perfectly capable of beating your list; I would expect it to. Basically you ignore the fortress and focus on killing the mech. You can basically take the Lascannon out of the equation by focussing on the opposing flank. So long as I focus on the 1000pts than can actually hurt my army, I should win. Basically, I drop my Serpent Shields and look to down your Prisms as fast as possible with Ignores Cover. After that I probably start attacking your scoring, starting with the Jetbikes, and then finally I attack your fortress (mostly to kill the DA). Considering your lack of mobility, I'd probably take 1st turn- the only thing you have to contest is the Jetbikes, and I have the mobility to kill them, so that's no biggie.

More important is an analysis of how my list beats actual, relevant lists

Cronair- My list beats it so hard it it's not funny- they rely on S7 firepower, and I have the mobility to minimise their firepower on my AV12 hulls whilst I wait for them to disembark and kill their infantry. I'd probably take 2nd turn in objective missions.

Double Drake- Again, this list simply does not have the firepower to down me reliably, since it invests so heavily in anti infantry firepower; Serpent's Shields are especially brutal here. Again, prioritise their anti tank and you win. If they're bringing Spawn you may want to down them first, but you're probably better off putting them at second priority and refusing the Spawn with deployment. I'd be inclined to take 2nd turn in objective missions.

GK Double Raven- This is actually potentially annoying, since the mass S6 struggles to down those flyers, but the Ravens aren't the real issue- it's the Dreadknights, although the Wraithguard are a really nice answer to them. Basically you down the Dreadknights and then go straight after the scoring GKSS base. Again, 2nd turn for objectives.

GK/SW/MeQ Mech- This is a pretty fair fight, although I think cover saves and superior ranges win the day here. 2nd turn for objectives

Pod Wolves- If it weren't for Serpent's Shield, this matchup would be really bad, but it's fine. I'm way more mobile and this is a foot army against my mass S6. I think my mobility puts it in my favour, but it's still a pretty fair game. I'd be looking to take 1st turn to get cover saves up to survive the initial drop.

IG Mech- this is actually potentially really harsh, due to the sheer number of bodies they can put inside Chimeras. Orders make this a hard win, since I'll be rerolling my tasty cover saves. Not sure which turn I take, depends on mission and which allies they bring.

DE Mech- I have mass S6. I crush them so hard it's not funny. Probably take 1st turn to deny the alpha, not that I'm terribly worried about it. Serpent's Shield ftw.

Tau- there are multiple builds in this book, but their advantages against my list are common to them all- markerlights are potentially brutal against me. I put pathfinders and the largest sources of markerlights at top priority. 1st or second turn depends on the exact build, but generally second, unless they're doing something wierd like spam Skyrays.

Flying Circus (Nid or Daemon)- potentially harsh, depending on psychic powers, but still probably a fair fight- daemons have no ranged ability, so i think I win that through grounded tests and dakka. Tyranids are harsher, mostly by dint of having better troops and higher pressure- this is still probably a fair fight.

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Originally Posted by Biellann View Post
Farseer Bel-Annath is Forgeworld. Psyker with access to Divination/Telepathy/Pyromancy. Also allows for some FoC changes, such as allowing a 4th Heavy Support to be taken at the cost of an Elites slot (I think). So if FW units are allowed, then that list is legal.
Thanks for the clarification. No FW in my lists; the majority of tournaments here don't allow it and I'd rather bring something busted like Lucius Pods if they're allowing Forgeworld.

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-06-13, 09:39 PM
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Over confidence is the key to your demise
Seriously though I do like the list although ragewind brings up some good points.
side note I reckon my all bike list would have a good shot at all these lists
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