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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-06-10, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Default Initial Dark Thoughts

I got the Codex a couple of days back and have been mulling o0ver the options. Before committing myself to a list (and the concommitant expenditure of buying the models) I thought I'd just float a couple (well, half-a-dozen) of questions here and see if I am on the right track.

1. Archon wargear.
a) I see Soul Trap as a must have - the ability to double strength after killing just one model is a huge boost to his effectiveness in CC. Anyone disagree?
b) Most posters seem to see the Huskblade as a good buy, but as I read it, it won't bring down Eternal Warriors. I'm thinking that a Djinn Blade (2 extra attacks) and 15 points cheaper might be a better option.
c) Shadowfield looks like the other must have. The Clone Field leaves the Archon too exposed to shooting which is going to happen given that we can no longer consolidate into a new combat.
d) webway Portal - intriguing but i don't see it fitting well with the rest of the army unless you're playing over 1500 points (in which case it might be a nice way to bring an Elite unit or two into play).
2. I think two Haemonculi, possibly 3 will be a good choice in any army. In turn that means keeping the cost of the Archon down (if you take one) and not splashing out too much on the Haemonculi themselves. I would go with just a PW plus Soul Trap or an Agoniser. As I see it their primary role is not to be a great fighter but to buff the units they are with by using the Pain Token.
3. Clearly the units that they tie in best with are Wracks. In a Raider with an H these things will have feel No Pain and Furious Charge making them very nasty. I'm not sure the H works that well with Wyches because he isn't Fleet so will slow them down (or get split off at the vital moment). One thing that puzzles me is whether he can join a unit of Helions at the start of the game (and donate his Pain Token) given that he can't move with them unless they choose to walk :-). If he can join them and donate then this could be a very good use.
4, I'm struggling to work out the best load out between Raiders and Ravagers and Dark Lances v Disintegrators. My instinct is to keep each type focussed - so the Ravagers get the anti-mech Dark Lances and the Raiders get the anti-elite Disintegrators. Any views on this?
5. As I understand it Kabalite Warriors are going to be able to shoot from their Raiders. But the shooting is subject to (a) the vehicle not moving above combat speed, and (b) heavy weapons can only be fired by the warriors if the vehicle is stationery. If that's right I would have thought that the KWarriors shouldn't be taking a Dark Lance if they are going to operate from a Raider. And therefore a Blaster (and possibly a Blast pistol for the Sybarite) would be sensible choices.
6. Is it me or are Agonisers the default choice for Sybarites and Hekatrices?

Thanks for the help.

Regards
TT
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-06-10, 03:30 PM
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Its isn't u, even in the old codex i always gave my sybarites a agoniser.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-06-10, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthteller View Post
I got the Codex a couple of days back and have been mulling o0ver the options. Before committing myself to a list (and the concommitant expenditure of buying the models) I thought I'd just float a couple (well, half-a-dozen) of questions here and see if I am on the right track.

1. Archon wargear.
a) I see Soul Trap as a must have - the ability to double strength after killing just one model is a huge boost to his effectiveness in CC. Anyone disagree?
At it's points cost, it's a snitch.
b) Most posters seem to see the Huskblade as a good buy, but as I read it, it won't bring down Eternal Warriors. I'm thinking that a Djinn Blade (2 extra attacks) and 15 points cheaper might be a better option.
Huskblade or Agoniser only. Eveything else is a waste of time.
c) Shadowfield looks like the other must have. The Clone Field leaves the Archon too exposed to shooting which is going to happen given that we can no longer consolidate into a new combat.
No brainer
d) webway Portal - intriguing but i don't see it fitting well with the rest of the army unless you're playing over 1500 points (in which case it might be a nice way to bring an Elite unit or two into play).
Webway army or not at all.
2. I think two Haemonculi, possibly 3 will be a good choice in any army. In turn that means keeping the cost of the Archon down (if you take one) and not splashing out too much on the Haemonculi themselves. I would go with just a PW plus Soul Trap or an Agoniser. As I see it their primary role is not to be a great fighter but to buff the units they are with by using the Pain Token.
Hexrifle not catch your eye? One shot kill pretty much anything apart from the entire marine codex (seeing as anything worth shooting with the rifle has EW)
3. Clearly the units that they tie in best with are Wracks. In a Raider with an H these things will have feel No Pain and Furious Charge making them very nasty. I'm not sure the H works that well with Wyches because he isn't Fleet so will slow them down (or get split off at the vital moment). One thing that puzzles me is whether he can join a unit of Helions at the start of the game (and donate his Pain Token) given that he can't move with them unless they choose to walk :-). If he can join them and donate then this could be a very good use.
Why would you use Hellions for anything other than speed?
4, I'm struggling to work out the best load out between Raiders and Ravagers and Dark Lances v Disintegrators. My instinct is to keep each type focussed - so the Ravagers get the anti-mech Dark Lances and the Raiders get the anti-elite Disintegrators. Any views on this?
Disagree entirely. There should only be 1 vehicle with Dizzys in your army. Everything else should retian it's dark lances. So, 1 ravager with Dizzys is enough.
5. As I understand it Kabalite Warriors are going to be able to shoot from their Raiders. But the shooting is subject to (a) the vehicle not moving above combat speed, and (b) heavy weapons can only be fired by the warriors if the vehicle is stationery. If that's right I would have thought that the KWarriors shouldn't be taking a Dark Lance if they are going to operate from a Raider. And therefore a Blaster (and possibly a Blast pistol for the Sybarite) would be sensible choices.
Agreed, other than the Blast pistol is a waste of points.
6. Is it me or are Agonisers the default choice for Sybarites and Hekatrices?
Wrong. If you want to play streamlined, then Sybarites should get a venomed blade, if that. Hekatrices are a different matter. You could give them an agoniser, it would give the unit a little more bite in CC. However, Wyches shouldn;t really be in combat with anything whos armour is better than 4+

Thanks for the help.

Regards
TT
There you are.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-06-10, 07:52 PM
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Orochi, Hexfire rifles don't do Instakill. EW has no effect. If your target fails his Wound test, he vanishes. NOTHING can stop it.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 12:01 AM
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Oh good.

Guess the Dual lash list is doomed.

"Dual lash?...6 Hex rifles. Bring it."
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
1. Archon wargear.
a) I see Soul Trap as a must have - the ability to double strength after killing just one model is a huge boost to his effectiveness in CC. Anyone disagree?
I see it as a nice gimmick, but once you ask yourself "How many IC/MCs do you REALLY see? And do I want to chase him/it around just to attack with my S3 initially? Is it really worth it" Not to mention, most IC's roll with pretty decent CC squads you need to eat thru 1st. Just not my cup o tea.
b) Most posters seem to see the Huskblade as a good buy, but as I read it, it won't bring down Eternal Warriors. I'm thinking that a Djinn Blade (2 extra attacks) and 15 points cheaper might be a better option.
If you like the Soul Trap, then you may as well take the Huskblade. You'll need that Instant Death rule, to get your Strength up a bit easier. Otherwise, I feel the same about this as above.
c) Shadowfield looks like the other must have. The Clone Field leaves the Archon too exposed to shooting which is going to happen given that we can no longer consolidate into a new combat.
Agree
d) webway Portal - intriguing but i don't see it fitting well with the rest of the army unless you're playing over 1500 points (in which case it might be a nice way to bring an Elite unit or two into play).
I wouldn't take 1 unless I was playing 2K pts. Then you can take 2 on your Haemys, put em in Raiders/Venoms with some Wracks(now the unit has FnP and FC), fly up, jump out, drop WWP and charge something.(under ideal conditions of course)
2. I think two Haemonculi, possibly 3 will be a good choice in any army. In turn that means keeping the cost of the Archon down (if you take one) and not splashing out too much on the Haemonculi themselves. I would go with just a PW plus Soul Trap or an Agoniser. As I see it their primary role is not to be a great fighter but to buff the units they are with by using the Pain Token.
Haemys have soooo many other neat "toys". If you really like the Soul Trap, leave it to the Archon, as his WS will make him much more viable with it.
3. Clearly the units that they tie in best with are Wracks. In a Raider with an H these things will have feel No Pain and Furious Charge making them very nasty. I'm not sure the H works that well with Wyches because he isn't Fleet so will slow them down (or get split off at the vital moment). One thing that puzzles me is whether he can join a unit of Helions at the start of the game (and donate his Pain Token) given that he can't move with them unless they choose to walk :-). If he can join them and donate then this could be a very good use.
Yes, you can start the game with the Haemy attached to any unit, then he can leave them with his Pain Token on your 1st turn. I actually plan on doing this with my 3-15 man Hellion units.
4, I'm struggling to work out the best load out between Raiders and Ravagers and Dark Lances v Disintegrators. My instinct is to keep each type focussed - so the Ravagers get the anti-mech Dark Lances and the Raiders get the anti-elite Disintegrators. Any views on this?
Depending on what type of army you run, DE can put out LOADS of anti-infantry with Splinter fire wounding on 4. For example, my Troops(Hellions with Baron), will be able potentailly dish out 90 poison shots at 18 inches(30/squad)at BS 4. That's gonna be a lot of saves for anyone.
5. As I understand it Kabalite Warriors are going to be able to shoot from their Raiders. But the shooting is subject to (a) the vehicle not moving above combat speed, and (b) heavy weapons can only be fired by the warriors if the vehicle is stationery. If that's right I would have thought that the KWarriors shouldn't be taking a Dark Lance if they are going to operate from a Raider. And therefore a Blaster (and possibly a Blast pistol for the Sybarite) would be sensible choices.
If you want Dark Lances on your Warriors, then no, you may not want them in a raider. Remember, it's a Hvy weapon for every 5 models though. So 20 warriors, could sit in cover with 4 Dark Lances. If things get close, they still have 32 Rapid fire Splinter Rilfe shots to tend with.
6. Is it me or are Agonisers the default choice for Sybarites and Hekatrices?
Hekatrixes(or Syrens), definately. I probably would leave Sybarites with the Splinter Rifles, personally.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Guess the Dual lash list is doomed.

"Dual lash?...6 Hex rifles. Bring it."
Guess again.
Lets count it! You have 6 hexrifles, from 2 HQ slots, way more than 350 points. You hit on 3+ (lets say you're in range) thats 4 hits, wounding on 4+, thats 2 saves against 3+ (or 5+ if you rolled rending) and even if the prince happened to fail its save, it still have to fail its W test against 4 (rollig 5-6).
Statistically in 3 shooting phases you"ll cause 4 armour saves and 2 Invu saves, approximatley 3 wounds, when he should fail his W test.
Does it worth you 350 points?

You bring him down much easier with the poisoned weapons, since 2 mere 10 men warrior squads should cause him 13-14 armour saves in one single turn. For 300 points and 2 Troops slots, including the raiders, which still have their D lances ready.

Clearly MC armies will struggle, but not 'cause the hexrifle.

Last edited by Daxora; 11-07-10 at 08:20 AM.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 08:31 AM
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Ahhh.. Blackyujiro, isn't for every 10 warriors you get a DL now?
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 09:41 AM
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350 points isn't to bad for what 6 Hexrifles can bring. The 36" range is crucial though. Anything less than that and I'd agree, no.

I will agree that it's far more useful against large, low armour save, multi wound models. Aka, tyranids.

Agonisers will always be a better choice all round than the Huskblade/Soultrap in my eyes.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 10:06 AM
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Yeah, against Tyranids its way better, but i'd still go with some naughty stuff, like Dark gate, orb of despair, Casket of flenssing.

IMO the haemonculi are not the killer HQ type, who ters the enemy apart in CC. They give FnP to a vital squad for 50 points, and thats it. Anything more they achieve is a bonus.
So when the unit disembarks from the raider, the haemo can stay inside with one of the toys above, and threaten the opponent. I know not to wait too much from him, but each of those wargears holds the potent of mass murder, therefore none can just let him wander the table, he'll magnet fire until he dies. Either if he takes a few lascannon shots, or he makes some damage on the oponent, it seems a nice deal to me.

Even better, when he deploys WWP. After 12" move, he gets out of the raider and puts down the portal. From this point, he would be pretty much useless and slow, but with one of these he still have a trick in the talon, not to underestimate.

Thats my opinion, what do you think?
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