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post #191 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-17-15, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post
You sure about that? It only states "This unit can charge on the same turn they disembark from the Karybdis Assault Claw." To my knowledge you can keep the unit inside the droppod when it comes in - But they still arrive from reserve.

If they were to come in and assault the same turn, then I believe it should have been worded "This unit can charge on the same turn they arrive from deepstrike".

Maybe I'm reading too much into it - But it seems like one of those cases where it can easily be argued that they still cannot charge when they come in from reserve.
Quote from BRB for special rules Deep Strike
Quote:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Otherwise it would be stupid to also have the rule there anyway as once the Kharybdis has deep striked anyway it is counted as a Flyer with Hover and is an Assault Vehicle anyway, so they can always assault on the turn they disembark in any other turn.
Also just noticed something (so amended previous post) Strangely as well if you missed all those Vehicles or Buildings you could drop off the Berserkers, go Flat Out in your shooting phase to move 18" and fly your way off the board and deepstrike again in the following turn and try again Though the troops loaded in this time you wanted would not be able to assault on coming out.

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Originally Posted by GuiltySparc View Post
those are expensive formations, are they for apocalypse or something?
It says "Although these Formation represent those that fought in the bloody siege of Angelus Prime, this conflict is far from the only timer that they have seen battle. As a result, you should feel free to use these Formations in any of your games of Warhammer 40,000"

But yeah the Ultramarine formations are a little expensive as they are 100 marines (60 tact, 20 assault, 20 devs, 2 dreads and a couple of chars, OR 100 veterans / termys + 3 ven dreads and a couple of chars) so about 1500-4000pts I guess. The Chaos ones are still expensive as said with the Hellforged Hunting Pack as a base of 1700 I think and upper limit is 2300 I think. An'grath and his 8 Blood Thirsters would be 2888 min and 3288 max.
Though the Khornes Fist is just the 650pts + any optionals you want to buy like chainaxes, melta bombs and stuff. But also remember they could come in on DropPod assault so 50% of your droppods rounding up can come in on turn 1. So if you take 1 of these formations you could guarantee they come in on your first turn and could also charge!
The Blooded Horde is also a not massively expensive 1160pts, especially as that is 64 bloodletters, 6 juggernauts and 2 skull cannons. Add on a Slaughtercult (Herald, 2X 8 Bloodletter, 5 Possessed) and Gorepack (2X 3 Bikers and 5 Hounds) for a Bloodhost army for about 597pts min I think, and that is 1757pts, so a bit of room for upgrades and additional bodies if you want.

Last edited by mayegelt; 05-17-15 at 03:51 PM.
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post #192 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-17-15, 11:05 PM
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...you know, I was joking when I was talking about GW giving SM drop pods a Strength D hit on whatever they land on, and also an AV 14 all around 20 HP titan... then they drop this Zerker-pod formation and the Warlord Titan and I don't know what to believe anymore.

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Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post
You sure about that? It only states "This unit can charge on the same turn they disembark from the Karybdis Assault Claw." To my knowledge you can keep the unit inside the droppod when it comes in - But they still arrive from reserve.

If they were to come in and assault the same turn, then I believe it should have been worded "This unit can charge on the same turn they arrive from deepstrike".

Maybe I'm reading too much into it - But it seems like one of those cases where it can easily be argued that they still cannot charge when they come in from reserve.
RAW you're left at a logical fault:

- may not assault the turn they come in
- may disembark the turn they come in
- may assault the turn they disembark

However, that you can't assault the turn you arrive from reserve is a rulebook rule and that you can assault the turn you disembark is a formation rule, and GW has stated that external rules sources override the main rulebook. So I'm inclined to say that if you choose to disembark the turn you arrive, you are allowed to assault because rules written here trump rules written in the main book.

If that doesn't satisfy you, let's look at this another way: so we have to look into the reasoning behind "why not simply call the Karybdis an Assault Vehicle?" It would fill the exact same wording... except that people already say the occupant of a Dreadnought Drop Pod can't assault the turn it comes in, on account of that rulebook rules association. Therefore, I argue that the rules-writers here didn't simply slap on the "Assault Vehicle" rule because that rules interaction is contained entirely in the main rulebook: arriving from reserve vs assault vehicles. With this wording, since formation rules trump rulebook, if you have disembarked this turn you may assault. Period.

Finally, let's look at RAI. Look at the flavor text. The actual rule allowing the assault is sloppily written, admittedly, but why the hell would they include that rule at all if their writing intent weren't to allow the squad of Zerkers to assault?

The conclusion I draw: overwhelmingly I see this as an "assault the turn they come in" rule.

Hellforged Hunting Pack: is that extra attack permanently, Lord of Skulls style, or until end of turn? I mean, I don't see why it isn't permanent... which makes that formation... quite insane. 8 Maulerfiends? Or, say, 5 Maulerfiends and 3 Soul Grinders? Whew!

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post #193 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
However, that you can't assault the turn you arrive from reserve is a rulebook rule and that you can assault the turn you disembark is a formation rule, and GW has stated that external rules sources override the main rulebook. So I'm inclined to say that if you choose to disembark the turn you arrive, you are allowed to assault because rules written here trump rules written in the main book.
Hmm that makes sense - Hell, I want to use this formation so I'm happy about getting a formation that can assault on the turn it arrived
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post #194 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
If that doesn't satisfy you, let's look at this another way: so we have to look into the reasoning behind "why not simply call the Karybdis an Assault Vehicle?"
They are already an Assault Vehicle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
Hellforged Hunting Pack: is that extra attack permanently, Lord of Skulls style, or until end of turn? I mean, I don't see why it isn't permanent... which makes that formation... quite insane. 8 Maulerfiends? Or, say, 5 Maulerfiends and 3 Soul Grinders? Whew!
Yes the additional attack is permanent and cumulative. So yeah my example of having a scorp and 8 maulers would be great. Each 1 that dies gives 1 bonus attack to the rest. So a Mauler starts with 3(5 on charge from rage) attacks (with the 2 powerfists). But if 4 of the maulers have died, then you are walking around with 7(9) attacks each...

I like the Hellforged Hunting Pack of 1 Scorp, 2 Drakes, 2 Grinders, 4 Maulers comes in right about 1850 and seems like a nasty force to field in a tourney and the Scorp could be the warlord
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post #195 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 01:14 PM
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Seems pretty clear that the intent is to have them be able to assault when they come in via the pod.
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post #196 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 04:16 PM
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So tempted to build



Here is a list of kits and extra bits used:
2 Defiler kits
1 extra defiler arm
2 dozer blades
2 ammo crate lids
1 missile load from ammo crates
2 Space Crusade dreadnought plasma guns
2 Extra Khorne vehilce Icons from the CSM vehicle sprue (for a total of 4 used)
1 Metal Khorne icon
Skulls from the Skeleton regiment
Lots of sprue (the plastic fraes that minis come on)
Spikey bits from the old CSM vehicle spikey bits sprue
Plasticard
Pin heads (used for rivets).

That was what the guy who made that one used. But I think I would slightly change the stuff up of course not having some of the stuff spare and finding other bits easier. But either way that one looks EPIC! compared to the FW one that I don't actually like much.
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post #197 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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I'm loving these formations.

The Bloodthirster one is out the window, because I'm never going to buy or build 8 Bloodthirsters.

I just ordered a brass scorpion this week, so these rules are quite timely! I love the FW scorpion, myself.

I'll be running my formation with these units:

Scorpion
3x Maulerfiends
2x Heldrakes
2x Blood Slaughterers
1x Soul Grinder

I need to get a Kharybdis, but that will take a while to save up for.

I like the Bloodletter formation, though against any vehicles it isn't going to accomplish much on its own. That's why you bring Gorepacks and 1 unit of Bloodletters in a Land Raider (or 1 unit of Bloodcrushers) with a banner of blood so they can all DS optimally. Not a super powerful list but it would be fun as hell to play.


As for the Fist of Khorne:

I'm thinking Combi-melta, Melta bombs, and maybe a Lightning Claw on the champ? If the vehicle(s) that receive the D survive, the champ could hopefully finish them off. Not sure the lightning claw is necessary, TBH. This formation would probably be most useful against infantry, though 3+ to hit Krak Grenades could do a number on many vehicles in the game. With a unit this big a multi-charge is pretty feasible too.


SUFFER NOT THE PONY TO LIVE.

- - AMATEUR KHORNESTAR: MY BLOG THING - -

Last edited by venomlust; 05-18-15 at 05:50 PM.
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post #198 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 06:30 PM
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Nordicus is correct. using logic gates, you are still barred from assaulting because the gate referring to Assaulting after coming from Reserve isn't explicitly bypassed.

In a game which works in explicits, Nordicus' reading is correct. In a beer and pretzels who gives a fuck game, the rule of "who cares what the rules say" takes over.



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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post #199 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
Nordicus is correct. using logic gates, you are still barred from assaulting because the gate referring to Assaulting after coming from Reserve isn't explicitly bypassed.

In a game which works in explicits, Nordicus' reading is correct. In a beer and pretzels who gives a fuck game, the rule of "who cares what the rules say" takes over.
I think this is a wrong interpretation for 2 reasons...first, being that its a case of a specific rule trumping a general rule. 2nd, and probably more importantly, khribdys is already an assault vehicle so you can already assault out of it, meaning that "Hungry for blood" would not be a special rule at all if it didn't trump the rule book rule for assaulting from reserves.
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post #200 of 226 (permalink) Old 05-18-15, 07:07 PM
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Rules not doing what they're supposed to do are hardly anything new, even within the editions they were written for.



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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