can u stay competetive without oblits? - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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can u stay competetive without oblits?

Hey I'm building a Nurgle force hoping to use some traitor guard as in Vraks III - truth is it's based on a well out of date guard list and the HQ etc won't blend with the new guard codex so I'm at a bit of a loss on how to keep it competitive.

I've spent a few quid on FW PM models - which are lush and I'm soon adding some Plague Bearers and my question is this:

If I was going to go the CSM list route - I have a thing about oblits - in that I just don't like the fluff and they seem way overpowered.
I'd much prefer to put a predator in instead without the obligatory DP with Wings.

How can I do this while keeping an edge?

I've found the new CSM codex a bit of a let down to be honest and even though I'm into the fluff and great modelling opportunities I feel a little short changed in that I can't used the Plague Bearer stat line from the Daemons Codex and would really like there to be a more recent directive on fielding Traitor IG in there.

These details could be wrangled out at the local club but I'd prefer to get some ideas from you guys first - so if you have a copy of Imperial Armour - Siege of Vraks III or you have an opinion on the CSM codex or can give feedback on a non Oblit CSM force I'd be really appreciative.

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 09:58 PM
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If you want to include firepower you could go for a defiler as it has a long range on its main weapon so you can hang back, but I dont rate them overly. My personal favourite would be to go with vindicators with daemonic possession, 2 minimum as I think they work better in groups.
This would fit with your plague marines as they dont have long ranged weapons, so they will be have to move up the table, and will be able to support the vindicators.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 10:16 PM
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Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, not seriously competitive. Chaos have 4 competitive units: DP, Oblits, 'zerkers, and Plague Marines. For a tourney-winning competitive list, you'll pretty much always see those 4 types of units, stacked as many deep as the points and the FOC chart allows. You can arguably include a few tanks: predator, vindi, defiler, LR...but those are what make up your variation. Chaos has one cookie-cutter competitive list, unfortunately.

If you're willing to sacrifice some competitiveness, then sure, don't take Obliterators.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 10:30 PM
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CSMs are underpowered. 5th edition has seen yet another power creep, most recently culminating in a book where every man is armed with a power weapon. No, CSM are old - they were the first of the fifth and they're beginning to show their age. The few things they have left to them now are Obliterators, Plague Marines and Lash-Princes - these are the few things that hold them up in tournaments. However, even these things are being overshadowed:

Oblits are expensive, easy to tie down with fast assaulters, physically fragile (a good lascannon hit is gonna cost you 75 pts) and you can only have 9.

PM are outmatched by BA Assault Marines, their FNP is relatively worthless against the plethora of low AP attacks in current lists and the focus on power weapon assaults, I3 doesn't do them any favours either.

And that good 'ole Lash tactic is now being countered with the heavy use of mech and consistantly effective Psychic defences. Almost ever list now countains a Librarian/Wolf Priest/Shadow in the Warp/Runes of Warding etc etc, all of which reduce the effectiveness of the one true tactic left to CSM players when our list is so heavily outclassed on every score.

In short, no, there's no way to ditch our only good units and still remain competitive. That would be like saying that non-mech, non-blob Guard could be effective. No, it's not going to happen unfortunately.

You could try going down a route something like
2 Warptime/Wings Princes MoN
Greater Summoned Daemon
2 x 7 Plague Marines PW, 2 Melta, Rhino
6 CSM, Meltagun, Champ, Rhino
3 Vindicators, Daemonic Possession

That's a potential Death Guard army which might have some sucess against opponent with little in the way of anti-armour fire, but don't rely on your opponent picking a bad list for you to win games - it'll be hard fought either way. That list has several tough troops and plenty of S10 AP2 pie plates, PM are as good as our infantry come, and the CSM are a caddy for the list's third monsterous creature. This means that you opponent will have 5, and then eventually 6 high priority targets to aim his high strength weapons at, all of which can pose a great threat to both this line units and his tanks.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 10:47 PM
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I like your list, I also despise obliterators, I could do with 1 prince since I'm warming up to him. I wanted to do a list which didn't include princes and obliterators too. Summoned daemon got my eye too.

Thx for asking this question, I just assembled my battleforce + pred + vindi and wanted to know where to go from there.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 11:28 PM
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Oblits are so good because they (a) are versatile and (b) provide long range support. If you don't take them, you immediately give up (a). As CSM are best at short range, having something that gives (b) is needed to get them there. Long range anti-tank is our biggest deficiency. So if you don't take oblits, what do you take to make up for it:

Vindicators? I like them in casual games, but they have only a 24" range and are unreliable for busting armor. Getting the center of the pie plate to stay on target is about a 1-in-3 chance, give or take. You could, in theory, still scatter a little and still penetrate AV 10-11, but that is far from a sure thing. Plus you don't want to scatter onto your own units, who will be in short range more than likely.

Defiler: Has long range weapons, but still is not the best for cracking armor. The Battle Cannon has a longer range but lower strength and AP. Plus it still scatters. The autocannon can be used against skimmers and low AV transports, but then you are giving up firing the Battlecannon. Plus, as a walker, it can't take a second effective weapon to fire at range (the Havok launcher is not a good option). You could take the lascannons as an upgrade, but then it gets too pricey.

Havoks: Too pricey, too static, and too fragile (unless you take 4 special weapons, but that does nothing for ranged support).

Predators: My thought is if you keep them cheap they might do the trick. You want to keep them on the move and out of LOS, so taking sponson weapons seems like a waste. I would take 3 predators with twin-linked lascannons and daemonic possession. The DP will drop your BS down to 3, but the twin linked will make it a 75% probability of hitting. Plus you can ignore shaken and stunned, keeping you both mobile and firing. Not taking sponson weapons keeps them cheap. Taking 3 requires your opponent will have to split fire over a few turns to get them all.

A standard Nurgle list without Oblits (and only 1 prince):

Daemon Prince (MoN, Wings, Warptime)
Chaos Lord (MoN, Wings, Daemon Weapon (Plaguebringer))
7 Plague Marines (2 Meltaguns, Champion, Power Fist, Rhino)
7 Plague Marines (2 Meltaguns, Champion, Power Fist, Rhino)
7 Plague Marines (2 Plasma Guns, Champion, Power Fist, Rhino)
Predator (Twin-Linked Lascannon, Daemonic Possession)
Predator (Twin-Linked Lascannon, Daemonic Possession)
Predator (Twin-Linked Lascannon, Daemonic Possession)
1498 pts.

Just my thoughts.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 02:35 AM
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I was thinking of a list like this:

Daemon Prince 175

7 Plague Marines 256
2 Meltaguns
Power Fist

7 Plague Marines 256
2 Meltaguns
Power Fist

7 Plague Marines 266
2 Plasma Guns
Power Fist

7 Plague Marines 266
2 Plasma Guns
Power Fist

Chaos Dreadnought 110
Twin Linked Autocannon
Missile Launcher (free)

Chaos Dreadnought 110
Twin Linked Autocannon
Missile Launcher (free)

Defiler 150

Defiler 150

Comes down to 1739. The dreads pop transports, then defilers put pie plates over their contents. Everything else is self explanatory.

How are defilers in close combat? Most things hit it on 3+, which is very bad news IMO, and only I3, meaning monsters and another dreadnoughts will most likely strike first.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 03:53 AM
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I have found that Defilers just don't work (for me) anymore and for those exact reasons.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-02-11, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Asura Varuna View Post
No, CSM are old - they were the first of the fifth and they're beginning to show their age.
C:CSM is in 4th.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-02-11, 08:35 PM
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Yes you can stay competitive without oblits, but it does tend to make things harder. One decent list I have seen that avoids oblits is the medium range mech gun line. Which uses a bunch of havoc's, chosen with assault weapons. Has no true long range, but I have seen such a list wreck 4 tyranid MC's in one round of shooting, and wipe 40 gaunts of a table at 2000pts.

After all the real draw back to oblits is their cost with 6 of em counting for 450+pts which if you were on a shoe string points budget would buy you notablly more heavy weapons if you went for less versatile options.

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Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come
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