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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-20-11, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Non - Competitive 1500pts

So, back in 2007, I bought the Chaos army box, on release actually. I built and painted a little bit, and the put it away. I've recently come back to the hobby. The scene has changed - CSM infantry are sub-par compared to the likes of 5th ed SW and SM, other armies are doing what Chaos does best, but better. I'm quite disappointed - I really like the Chaos army, it has character, it has style, but it lacks an easy competitive edge.

Of course, I could resort to Dual Lash and Obliterator spam; however, I wouldn't enjoy this, and I'm pretty sure none of the members of my club would either. I doubt I'll ever be taking this army to a tournement (where it would most likely get hammered by pretty much everything else), but I don't want it to be a total push-over list.

You might ask "If you want it to be uncompetitive, why are you bothering to ask at all? Why not just do what you like?" This is a fair point. But I know from experience, the best games are the ones which are close - where it's not obvious who's won from as soon as the figures touch the table. I want games I can enjoy, games my opponents can enjoy, and for that, I need a decent enough list.

So, provided I'll hopefully not be playing anyone's tournement build:

Chaos Sorcerer
- Warptime

3 Chaos Terminators
- Power Fist and Combi - Melta
- Pair of Lightning Claws
- Combi - Melta

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Meltaguns
- Rhino

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon
- 2 Plasmaguns

8 Khorne Berserkers
- Skull Champion w/ Power Fist

3 Obliterators

Defiler
- 2 Additional CC Attachments.

[1283]

So, at this stage, I have all the models to build this force. The Terminators aren't yet assembled (and 3 of the 6 are going to become Obliterators anyway). And nor is the Defiler; as much as I'd like to have some sort of Vehicle, the Defiler model is big, and I don't really have any safe means of transporting it.

(Just as an aside, if anyone is interested in buying a Defiler model, still on sprues with instructions, drop me a PM)

Of course, as you can see, that list is actually short of the 1500 points mark. What would be good to add to make it up to that mark. Also perhaps consider that I might not field the Defiler.

Any advice would be helpful. Any advice that is which doesn't go along the lines of "You need 2 Lash Princes and 9 Oblits.", that is.
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-20-11, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
CSM infantry are sub-par compared to the likes of 5th ed SW and SM, other armies are doing what Chaos does best, but better.
I don't agree, and I don't think im alone here.

Quote:
lacks an easy competitive edge
There I have to agree unfortunately, although that's not always a bad thing since it's not fun if it's easy and it will improve you as a player. Don't be fooled though chaos may not be on top of it's game right now but we aren't pushovers, and prophecy tells of a future with a new codex full of wonderful cheese.

Ok so the list...

Quote:
Chaos Sorcerer
- Warptime
Demon princes are the kings of our HQ slot, in small games sorcerers might pull their own weight but they struggle at 1500. Some special characters can also be useful and very fun but, demon princes are so good it's wrong.

Quote:
3 Chaos Terminators
- Power Fist and Combi - Melta
- Pair of Lightning Claws
- Combi - Melta
Termies are really ineffective in CC without numbers, especially if they are deepstriking, 3 termies can easily get torn to shreds from shooting in the turn they have to wait around before they can assault, so drop the LCs. Small deepstriking units of termies should only have meltas to deal with high AV armour, maybe a chainfist if you have the points.

Quote:
10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Meltaguns
- Rhino

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon
- 2 Plasmaguns

8 Khorne Berserkers
- Skull Champion w/ Power Fist
Firstly your infantry is way to static especially the Bezerkers, they will never get into combat without a rhino, mech is really really important nowadays. Other than that not bad but whatever vanilla CSMs can do Plague Marines can do better, yes they are expensive, yes they have low I, and yes they have suffered from 5th ed, but they are still one of the best infantry units in the game. Our specialized infantry is what really sets us apart from other armies. Zerkers are perfect if you add a rhino. Need icons if deepstriking the termies.

So what I would do with your list is:

Prince - 175 (WT, wings, MoN)
3 termies - 120 (3 melta, chainfist)
7 PMs - 276 (champ with PF, 2 melta, rhino with EA, icon)
7 PMs - 276 (champ with PF, 2 melta, rhino with EA, icon)
8 Bezerkers - 263 (champ with PF, rhino with EA, icon)
3 Obliterators
Defiler - Extra CC arms

= 1485

Maybe give something a plasma pistol with the extra 15pts. If you are concerned about not having PMs and wasting your vanilla marines don't worry converting them is easy, I play death guard and i don't actually own a single plague marine model. The list I presented isn't very competitive but it's not crappy

So ya, good luck

"In the morning I will be sober but you will still be ugly"

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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-20-11, 05:04 PM
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Pretty much agree with Bushido comments.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-20-11, 09:31 PM
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If your looking to have fun with your army I advise you not use a sorcerer. I find them a very boring unit. But thats just my opinion.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-20-11, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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Awesome, some feedback.

Just like to clarify though, some of the less-than-optimal choices are due to the models I have. I'm trying to make a list out of what I have, and then can go from there and buy things I need, rather than random stuff - hence the small Terminator squad and the lack of transports.

I could just tell that someone would suggest PMs - I know CSMs are sub-par - but unless my opponent would be happy to let me proxy them, there's no way I'm remodelling / painting my CSM infantry. I've simply invested way too much time in them. If I was modelling them as PM, then I certainly would have listed them as such.

As for the Daemon Prince, once again, another model I don't yet have, but something I'll be buying shortly. The sorcerer is mainly there as a step in HQ choice, seeing as he can join the Berserkers - effectively functioning as any other melee orientated attached character would. But I know what you're saying, the DP is undoubtably better - and he's way undercosted for how good a HQ choice he is.

As for the Terminators, they're really just leftovers from the Obliterators I'm building at the moment. One of them is from the Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour sprues, and it would be an awful waste to put an expensive model like that through my ham-handed greenstuff modification process, I might in fact ditch the terminator squad all together, instead making up 5 Obliterators and a Sorcerer who'll never see a game...

I'm getting around to getting transports though. :D

So, apologies for not being able to conform to using PMs, I will if my opponent allows me to proxy them, otherwise:

Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Warptime
[155]

Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Warptime
[155]

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Meltaguns
- Icon of Chaos Glory
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[280]

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Plasmaguns
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[270]

8 Khorne Berserkers
- Aspiring Champing w/ Power Fist
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[258]

3 Obliterators
[225]

2 Obliterators
[150]

[1493]

Looking at that list, I'm surprised how close it comes to being the competitive list, in terms of point allocation and such, the Prince could easily become Lash Princes, the two CSM squads could easily become PMs, saving a few points, and losing a few upgrades like Icons could get me a sixth obliterator.

Not that I intend to make a list like that though... <_<

Last edited by Asura Varuna; 02-20-11 at 10:23 PM.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asura Varuna View Post
Awesome, some feedback.

Just like to clarify though, some of the less-than-optimal choices are due to the models I have. I'm trying to make a list out of what I have, and then can go from there and buy things I need, rather than random stuff - hence the small Terminator squad and the lack of transports.

I could just tell that someone would suggest PMs - I know CSMs are sub-par - but unless my opponent would be happy to let me proxy them, there's no way I'm remodelling / painting my CSM infantry. I've simply invested way too much time in them. If I was modelling them as PM, then I certainly would have listed them as such.

As for the Daemon Prince, once again, another model I don't yet have, but something I'll be buying shortly. The sorcerer is mainly there as a step in HQ choice, seeing as he can join the Berserkers - effectively functioning as any other melee orientated attached character would. But I know what you're saying, the DP is undoubtably better - and he's way undercosted for how good a HQ choice he is.

As for the Terminators, they're really just leftovers from the Obliterators I'm building at the moment. One of them is from the Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour sprues, and it would be an awful waste to put an expensive model like that through my ham-handed greenstuff modification process, I might in fact ditch the terminator squad all together, instead making up 5 Obliterators and a Sorcerer who'll never see a game...

I'm getting around to getting transports though. :D

So, apologies for not being able to conform to using PMs, I will if my opponent allows me to proxy them, otherwise:

Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Warptime
[155]

Daemon Prince
- Wings
- Warptime
[155]

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Meltaguns
- Icon of Chaos Glory
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[280]

10 Chaos Marines
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist
- 2 Plasmaguns
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[270]

8 Khorne Berserkers
- Aspiring Champing w/ Power Fist
- Rhino w/ Extra Armour
[258]

3 Obliterators
[225]

2 Obliterators
[150]

[1493]

Looking at that list, I'm surprised how close it comes to being the competitive list, in terms of point allocation and such, the Prince could easily become Lash Princes, the two CSM squads could easily become PMs, saving a few points, and losing a few upgrades like Icons could get me a sixth obliterator.

Not that I intend to make a list like that though... <_<
persoanlly i find this entertaining. i run my word bearers as undevided CSM's all the time, and if your good with manuvering theres no need to plague up, however, for tournements i use them as plague marines and its allowed do to "counts as" and the fact that people scratch build models all the time. i see no reason to not be able to use them. like i said though, typically theres no need anyways and a regular CSM will suffice.

as to the list, i like the princes, but i'd try to mark them. either tzeentch or nurgle for better survivablity.

extra armour on rhinos is pointless IMHO, drop it and add an extra bolter, this will up the damage output vs infantry whilst giving your missle happy opponents a second weapon to remove before they can immobilize it to death. honestly, 2 things only ever get fired at rhinos aside from the obligitory lascannon here and there, and that is melta or missle and a rhino hasn't got a prayer vs melta.

invest in a second icon of glory for the csm squad without one. their handy.

devide your oblits into 2 squad of 2 and a single for maximum potentail fire a turn, it'll allow you to target more things while makeing more targets for your foe to deal with.

hopefully i was helpful and welcome back to the powers!

Ave Dominae Nox
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 02-21-11, 05:28 AM
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I can't imagine anyone would complain if you proxy a 3+save Bolter unit as another 3+save bolter unit with almost identical upgrade options.

That said, Plague marines more than make up for their high cost in pure hilarity. Nothing is better than watching a BA player's face slowly turn red as my unit of Plagues tarpits his Assault Squad for 3 full turns because he can't wound for shit with his Power Weapon thanks to T5.
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