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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-15-10, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Default Chaos Marines - Need Help

Hello Heresy Onliners! This is my first post, although I've read a fair few posts on here. A few disclaimers first - 1) I have no money to buy new minis, B) My group (with the exception of a Grey Knight player) are just friends who play, mostly fluffy lists and just for fun rather than as competative munchkins, iii) I used to play (heavily) in 2nd ed, took a long break and came back to find 5th ed which is a much different game, so I might well still be heavily influenced by my old ways, 4) While WYSIWYG isn't rabidly enforced by the group, I still prefer my minis look a lot like what I'm using them as, because I'm sad and pedantic.

The minis I have:
1 termie lord, 1 dual lightning claw lord with wings, 9 zerkers, 7 plague marines (1 plasma gunner), 25 CSM (2 heavy bolters, 2 plasma gunners), 10 possessed (why? I don't know now! Having used them three times I really wish I didn't have them), 1 rhino, 1 land raider.

--

Normally we play 1,500 points and my army looks like this:

Nurgle Terminator Lord with deamon weapon. 165 pts

Khorne Lord with pair of lightning claws and wings. 150 pts

5 x Chosen Marines with melta bombs, power weapons, asp champ and icon of Nurgle in rhino. 285 pts

9 x Berzerkers with skull lord and power weapon. 219 pts

7 x Plague Marines with plague champion, plasma gun, power weapon. 206 pts

10 x Nugle CSM with heavy bolter and plasma gun. 225 pts

Land Raider with daemon possession. 240 pts

--

Now, I've had some fun and I've never really been taken apart (as per my words on how fluff-friendly the group is as a whole). However, I would really, really like to be able to take down the Grey Knight player as he's your typical munchkin. Every single thing you say about a good unit he feels the need to 'trump' with a selection from his codex.

He always fields an 8 man terminator squad as his HQ choice (I know very little about his codex as will become clear as I go on) which, in a three-way game we recently played, took apart my khorne lord and zerks on the charge, then the other player's 10 man zerk squand and 6 raptors and nearly survived that too. One on one I have been unable to take that unit down thanks to a combination of his 'shrouding' meaning I quite often can't shoot them with what I want/need to shoot them with.

Any advice based on using what I have? I'd appreciate it.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 08:46 PM
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Regarding your friends 8man termie squad - if you can't shoot them then only real way to get rid of them is to beat them at their own game: charge with smth that takes out termies, ie: power weps, power fists, lightening claws. This would mean that you need to get a killer unit tweaked just for this reason. I suggest your own unit of termies with lightening claws and MOK or MON together with a lord or Kharn (who is also an awesome killer).

That being said, your army lacks heavy support. Your chosen should have 5 meltas and be tank hunters (give them a rhino if you aren't going to infiltrate).

PMs are usually an objective unit, so give em 2 plasmas and champ with fist - very resilient unit.

Give your berserkers a rhino - you don't want them foot slogging and be shot to bits.

IMO you don't need an extra unit of PMs - you can convert into a unit of havocs for some heavy support.

I definitely know what you mean about the game changing - I myself am a heavy player from 3rd Ed (and a little 4th) where chaos ruled all ... Now we have to struggle and I mean really struggle. Gl with the list! Hope you wipe that Pansy daemonhunters player!!
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-16-10, 09:30 PM
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Vindicators kill termies without the new stormshileds dead. from my experienace i am nota great fan of chaos lords any more. imo i feel demon princesare the way to go. 2 dp's with wings warptime and either MoT or MoN can be fearsome. Chaos veteran has a lot of good points and i really like his advice. if hes got 8 Gk termies in 1500 points, then you've got him beat. lose the raider for a vindio and get rhinos for everything. and Double up on plasma in your squads. yoou wana make his termies goaway, 5 chosen with 4 plasma guns will do the job just fine.

No one ever defended anythign successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more.
George S Patton.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 06:38 AM
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Plasmaguns.Your PM do some very dangerous things if you use them correctly. My friend has Grey Knights and I know what you mean. My friend fields a sqauds of 6 Termies and 5 Termies. So your having trouble with just six, try fighting another 5 after it. Here is what I know.

Our Termies with MoK and Lightning claws tend to really hurt them. Get somethign with High AP. Melta and Plasma, the fact that a Plasma Pistol(which your Zerkers can use) can take their 2+ armor save away is great. True they still have a 5++ save, but it my matches I have seen it really hurt them.

Get a Deflier, for 150 points, with 5 attacks, that ignore power armor? Oh please say it gets better. Well it does, since it ahs that battle cannon, and you could always give it Lascannons, which again is a S9 with an AP2, taking that 2+ up.

Kharn. Get Kharn. So waht he can kill one of yours, he does a 7 attacks on the charge and its no armor saves allowed. Once again taking out that 2+. That is where your going to really ahve to get him. Taking out the 2+. The 5++ you can't do crap about, but 1/3 chance of getting it is better than over 2/3 chance of hitting something over 1. So thats my advice.

Also, get a DP. Honestly, thanks to being a MC, he negates power armor saves. S6 witha W7 and I5, he is hitting evering first or at least at the same time. Give him MoK(not a big fan of doing so) if you are worried that you might not make your Tests due to his cover. Range can be hard to hit with their codex, but nontheless try it. What is the worst you can do? Not shoot him, when really you plan to charge him? Remember hsi little ruling on not shooting only works for his troops on foot, not when they are in Veh. Pop the Veh get a few kills, if you can.

Thats my advice hope it works out for you.

P.S.
I have used Termies with MoK and Lightning Claws, are freaking Sick against it. Trust you me against 6 Termies and his HQ it really hurts them. Set them in a squads of normal knights and watch the little Spec Ops of the Emperor being thrown around like rag dolls.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 07:28 AM
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if theres no issue with swapping models from unit a to unit b then i think the best advise to give (since you cant add to the army)

is to put the khorne lord in the rhino with zerkers, he CAN ride in one - FaQ'd

& give the PM squad the 2nd plasma gun.

personally id drop the heavy bolter from your CSM squad, they are best moving around & shooting stuff then assaulting it (like EVERYTHING else smart*ss - to self)

if you wish to add items id go with:

either 2x vindicators or 2x defilers
Demon prince (or two)

now here's where it starts to get personal - i LOVE Noise Marines.

so id suggest 7 NMs with sonic blasters & a champ with doom siren & PW; ya its a damn near 300 point unit but they turn Meq / Geq units into goo with the fire power they can pour out. they also have I5 so they are USUALLY striking before your opponent. combine those in a multi charge with zerkers

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if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 03:37 PM
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Do you have some sprues? Cause by the looks of your army you should have some meltaguns and perhaps more plasma to put on your models. One of the best things about our marines is all the special weaps we can take. So you want a lot of melta and plasma. I'd ditch the Heavy bolters.

As for the Possessed, if you don't like them snap them apart! They make awesome bits parts for lords and champions. And surely you could use the pieces to make a lord or sorcerer you've been wanting to try out.

One popular tactic is to give your chosen plasma and infiltrate them (most people don't kit them out for CC, but your choice), that would save your rhino for a CSM squad.

And, if your willing to convert models, I've seen some pretty cool conversions of plasma guns by sticking the front of the plasma pistol (which you should have a few of) on a bigger gun, and a bit more work on the bigger part.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chaosveteran View Post
Regarding your friends 8man termie squad - if you can't shoot them then only real way to get rid of them is to beat them at their own game: charge with smth that takes out termies, ie: power weps, power fists, lightening claws. This would mean that you need to get a killer unit tweaked just for this reason. I suggest your own unit of termies with lightening claws and MOK or MON together with a lord or Kharn (who is also an awesome killer).
I did manage to take apart 6 of them in one charge using my MoK lightning claw lord and his unit of zerkers - 6 of his models bought at the cost of 10 of mine. Not too bad a trade, given that his were the main section of his army and I still had plenty of units left.

Sadly, as much as I would adore a nice dual claw unit of termies, funds prohibit such extravogance at the moment. I'm sure I could field an 8 man claw terminator squad for fewer points than his HQ choice, that would take his squad apart on the charge. Unfortunately, I lack the models and the funds.

Quote:
That being said, your army lacks heavy support. Your chosen should have 5 meltas and be tank hunters (give them a rhino if you aren't going to infiltrate).
Yes, I've been thinking of re-making that squad to be dedicated tank/MC hunters as they tend to not do just as well as my zerker unit (without the lord's attacks) on the charge, but with fewer models, so are generally easier to take care of.

Quote:
PMs are usually an objective unit, so give em 2 plasmas and champ with fist - very resilient unit.
I was introduced to how resiliant the PMs can be when they were charged by 10 zerkers and managed to hold them up for several turns while I moved into position to take them out. And the PMs died on his turn leaving his zerkers to be counter charged by my own. Happy times.

Quote:
Give your berserkers a rhino - you don't want them foot slogging and be shot to bits.
They generally go in the land raider with my MoK lord and bounce out and assault with him. It's a very pleasing sight!

Quote:
IMO you don't need an extra unit of PMs - you can convert into a unit of havocs for some heavy support.
I don't really have the heavy weapons to do that, unfortunately, and I don't like using 'counts as' models in such ways.

Quote:
I definitely know what you mean about the game changing - I myself am a heavy player from 3rd Ed (and a little 4th) where chaos ruled all ... Now we have to struggle and I mean really struggle. Gl with the list! Hope you wipe that Pansy daemonhunters player!!
I didn't play any 3rd and only one game of 4th, which I was totally lost in because of how different it was. Before starting up again I borrowed a rule book and got familiar with the new rule set. I kind of which I'd had my army before buying my army, if that makes any sense. I was buying based on next to no information, just going for what looked good. Given the decisions again I'd have a much different army right now!

Thanks for the post!
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Titankiller17 View Post
Vindicators kill termies without the new stormshileds dead.
Once I've got the cash I might invest in a vindicator, as they do look quite good for the points cost.

Quote:
from my experienace i am nota great fan of chaos lords any more. imo i feel demon princesare the way to go. 2 dp's with wings warptime and either MoT or MoN can be fearsome.
One of the group I game with has a DP with wings (converted, I believe, from a balrog mini?) and I don't know if it's ever as effective as my MoK Lord who gets to hide in the land raider until it's time for him to leap into action. I've never seen him get his DP into combat, yet my Lord gets to see combat every game. Sometimes it's one charge and then gibbed by grey knight terminators and HQ choice, but it's quite a sight to see him take down 3 of the blighters on his own when everyone in my gaming group always laments how hard they are to kill.

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Chaos veteran has a lot of good points and i really like his advice. if hes got 8 Gk termies in 1500 points, then you've got him beat. lose the raider for a vindio and get rhinos for everything. and Double up on plasma in your squads. yoou wana make his termies goaway, 5 chosen with 4 plasma guns will do the job just fine.
Sadly, getting rhinos for everything and a vindicator would be quite a substantial outlay of funds, which I don't have. Getting every squad a rhino is on my list of things to buy, but at the present time it's impossible.

Also, 5 chosen, with 4 plasmas is only 8 shots at BS4. Now, even with the best rolling in the world I'm not going to get rid of his 8 man squad with just them. With how lucky he is with saving throws (I don't know how or why, but his guys are 4+ invulnerable too) I'd feel myself lucky to take down one of his termies with those 8 shots before he charged my unit and slaughtered it with his I5 cheesemongers. I've managed the best single turn damage to them in my entire gaming group with my tally of 6 in one charge.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyustukyi View Post
Plasmaguns.Your PM do some very dangerous things if you use them correctly. My friend has Grey Knights and I know what you mean. My friend fields a sqauds of 6 Termies and 5 Termies. So your having trouble with just six, try fighting another 5 after it.
Just eight, but yes I can see what you're talking about. Having that much cheese split into two units would make my day a lot worse.

Quote:
Here is what I know.

Our Termies with MoK and Lightning claws tend to really hurt them. Get somethign with High AP. Melta and Plasma, the fact that a Plasma Pistol(which your Zerkers can use) can take their 2+ armor save away is great. True they still have a 5++ save, but it my matches I have seen it really hurt them.
I might look into upgrading a couple of my zergers to have plasma pistols so I can hopefully take one out prior to charging in. I didn't put them on the models because I don't really like the 'Gets Hot' rule.

They'd still have 4++ as he's given them something special it seems. I've never read his codex so I've no idea what it is, but it's a laid back group and we all just trust each other to be honest and know our own codex.

After outfitting my units with rhinos, a unit of terminators with lightning claws is quite high on my list of 'wants'. I managed to borrow some the other day and they were epic. Sure they were still beaten by Yarrick, and another named imperial guard guy in the same unit, but then so was my MoN Lord. It wasn't their fault.

Quote:
Get a Deflier, for 150 points, with 5 attacks, that ignore power armor? Oh please say it gets better. Well it does, since it ahs that battle cannon, and you could always give it Lascannons, which again is a S9 with an AP2, taking that 2+ up.
Would love to get one of these as well! So many minis I would like to buy, so no money to buy them with.

Quote:
Kharn. Get Kharn. So waht he can kill one of yours, he does a 7 attacks on the charge and its no armor saves allowed. Once again taking out that 2+. That is where your going to really ahve to get him. Taking out the 2+. The 5++ you can't do crap about, but 1/3 chance of getting it is better than over 2/3 chance of hitting something over 1. So thats my advice.
I've toyed with the idea of fighting his cheese with the chaos space marines own cheese - Abaddon and a unit of lightning claw terminator champions. Fight massive points value unit with massive points value unit. But then I remember I don't have the money to do that and go back to my drawing board. lol

Quote:
Also, get a DP. Honestly, thanks to being a MC, he negates power armor saves. S6 witha W7 and I5, he is hitting evering first or at least at the same time. Give him MoK(not a big fan of doing so) if you are worried that you might not make your Tests due to his cover.
Again, another thing I'd like to do with money. I'd quite like to be able to afford to properly model a winged DP. Not happening any time soon though.

Quote:
Range can be hard to hit with their codex, but nontheless try it. What is the worst you can do? Not shoot him, when really you plan to charge him? Remember hsi little ruling on not shooting only works for his troops on foot, not when they are in Veh. Pop the Veh get a few kills, if you can.
Well, I do try to shoot them. It's just that I have a knack for rolling too low when they're at a decent range to give me a few shots. Also, with him deep striking them in, there's generally one turn to shoot them before they're in H2H and I'm watching unit after unit be shredded.

Quote:
Thats my advice hope it works out for you.
Thanks for it as well.

Quote:
P.S.
I have used Termies with MoK and Lightning Claws, are freaking Sick against it. Trust you me against 6 Termies and his HQ it really hurts them. Set them in a squads of normal knights and watch the little Spec Ops of the Emperor being thrown around like rag dolls.
I got a lend of another guy's LC terminators the other time I played and it was a lot of fun. Although, their I5 did mess my terminator's I4 up a bit. Still, he didn't like it, which is always beneficial!
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 11-17-10, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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[quote=Fallen;789656]if theres no issue with swapping models from unit a to unit b then i think the best advise to give (since you cant add to the army)

is to put the khorne lord in the rhino with zerkers, he CAN ride in one - FaQ'd[/quote[
He generally rides in the land raider with the zerkers so they can assault asap and have something there that the guy I'm fighting against cares more about killing.

Quote:
give the PM squad the 2nd plasma gun.
Don't really have a second PM plasma guy. Not that I think my gaming group would spit the dummy over this minor detail, but I like it when I don't have to remember what people are carrying! lol

Quote:
personally id drop the heavy bolter from your CSM squad, they are best moving around & shooting stuff then assaulting it (like EVERYTHING else smart*ss - to self)
Yeah. I've been finding that there's often times when I could either stand still and fire the heavy bolter, or move and fire everything else. In such situations everything else wins. So I have been thinking of just busting off the heavy bolter and putting something else from my sprues there.

Quote:
if you wish to add items id go with:

either 2x vindicators or 2x defilers
Demon prince (or two)
I want rhinos for my other guys first. Damn GW and their rules that make me buy tanks. I went the whole of second ed, about three or four years, without buying a single tank. I didn't want to and didn't need to. Now I'm finding I am desperate for some mobile cover and zippy fast deployment!

Quote:
now here's where it starts to get personal - i LOVE Noise Marines.

so id suggest 7 NMs with sonic blasters & a champ with doom siren & PW; ya its a damn near 300 point unit but they turn Meq / Geq units into goo with the fire power they can pour out. they also have I5 so they are USUALLY striking before your opponent. combine those in a multi charge with zerkers
I'm not much for Slaanesh, sadly. I prefer the other three gods. I've been thinking about 1K Sons though (something that I would have never even contemplated in 2nd ed) because their AP3 ammo sounds very tasty!

Thanks for your post.
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