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post #71 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
Assumptions lead to many things but often enough they do not lead to the truth, I've played in 37 5th edition tournaments. That doesn't count the 100s of 3rd and 4th edition tournaments I have played though.
And yet you use IoS.
Peculiar.


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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
You can bring up mathammer all damn day. But it still does not change real world situations. Units are not always in cover. Units are not always going to miss x of x times, nor pass x of x saves. Sure you have probability, however games aren;t always average now are they? Run the mathhammer down on all the 'ard boys tourney's and even the world tourney's and the people should not have rolled what they did in each situation. if you run by the average roll for each match well then you might be right in the perfect little virtual calculator world you must play in, however above average rolls happen, under average rolls happen. In a fluke assault I have seen basic 10 IG guardsmen take out SS/TH termies in assualt after receiving the charge. Your mathammer uses probability to show why it shouldn't happen, but it does happen.
Mathhammer is what GENERALLY happens on the field of battle. It's what happens MOST of the time, it's what happens A GREATER PERCENTAGE THAN NOT. It is what you can FORM A PLAN AROUND.

Forming a plan around the outliers is folly. It'd be like planning on your opponent dying of aids, boredom, and the gum disease gingivitis all at once.

Now then, you say units are not in cover. To that I will simply reply that you are bad.
Playing as an infantry templar list I'm not out of cover unless I want to be. Ever. Period. Unless you double lash me out of it. Try not playing mech and you'll see what I mean. You just have to have 50% of a walking unit TOUCH that terrain piece.

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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
My assumption is that you take your models out and deploy them. Then you wait for your adversary to do the same, then you pull out your laptop, plug your army and your enemy's army into a calculator and print out the match result after 6 rounds. Then you pack up and say "Your list is bullocks." I mean obviously you don't even need dice to play a dice and miniature based war game, after all you have a combat calculator to tell you the result of every action in the game, thus proving your self an excellent mathammer player and a horrible wargamer.
Actually I do go up to the table and immediately tell my opponent whether their list is bullocks or not. If they take offense it makes them drive harder and act stupid, and I can drink their tears for sustenance.

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Originally Posted by Inquisitor Malaclypse View Post
exactly. it doesn't matter what we think is better or not. he's asking for advice on list he built. there's nothing wrong with suggesting different builds, even drastically different builds, but if he's set on playing a certain army with a given theme, it's on the forum members to either back off this thread or give him advice, and let the OP decide what he wants to play.

it's his army he'll be playing, and he's the one buying and painting the models he wants. in the end what we think or say doesn't matter.

good hunting.
I would like to see him play an army that is capable of being used for fun and for competition. Tzeentch is exceedingly hard to do so

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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
So that's with nowt but bolters then?
When I said basic gear, I suppose I should have said "The standard gear given to every plague marines squad that was ever fielded with the intent to win a game". To me, that means with just the basic, everyday gear of champ with fist and double melta/plasma.



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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
It's helpful if your figuring out the flaws in how he plans to use his list without fundamentally changing that list.
Uh sure.
Use them in rhinos. Take sorcerors. Don't die.

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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
f#*k mathhammer . . . . I jest but seriously, mathhammer is a tool to use to assess a situation its not the answer! Because oh right we roll dice and that is random! (yer probability and all that bollocks)
the dude hasn't asked for a double lash cheese filled slaughterer fest, he's asked for help to build a competent fluffy army! Whats more the main point is forgotten . . . . Thousand sons look awesome! Ahriman is a brilliant model!
My advice to the actual list run a squad of t-sons but back them up with nilla marines with mot!
With the interest sparked I think you need to do a blog now including a win rate to satisfy the nay sayers!
I don't believe you have ever taken a math class. We use mathhammer in order to devise a controlled lab setting to pit one thing against another. It shows us what usually happens, excluding outliers as you cannot successfully always be an outlier nor should you plan for it.

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
DP w/ Wings, MoT, Warptime, WoC
You might be better off saving the points on WoC and instead not including it. Your warptiming prince will stomp face enough, instead why not enhance his range with doombolt?

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
Lord w/ Termie Armor, MoT, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta
This is bullocks. Bring a prince.

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
3x Terminators w/ 1x CF, 1x HF, 3x Combi-Melta
Im seeing these more and more, and Im never offended by them

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
Land Raider
Wtf no. Bad monkey. Termiantors DS in.

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
Honestly I'd advocate over the IoT vanilla marines. At least you get special weapons/cheaper

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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators
Defiler w/ Havoc Launcher
The MOST optimum list is oblits in squads no bigger than two. And defilers stink so toss that, shove over two oblits to make another squad and this isn't bad. If you feel you need the cannon take a DP Vindi.

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Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
I want to see LordWaffles table, he seem to be under the impression that every single squad in every single army will be in cover 100% of the time though 100% of games.

I think he plays too much city fight and not enough normal 40K
It's because I'm not a trash player that I can get cover when I need it. Planning ahead, experience and being able to read the board make it possible for my units to be in cover every time without fail(Outside lash).

As for regular 40k I can hypothesize that I've played more than you as I'm not the one asking for a tzeentch list that is also competitive.

Also burn.

Also guys, how low do we have to scrape if we ignore mathhammer. Really. Solid advice I can see ignoring, dreamed up tactics and counterpoints I can see being ignored, but mathhammer? You can't fudge the numbers on it if used properly. If my math was off point it out but don't throw out the building blocks of society because you don't like the truth I bring. We need math! Math is good!

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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Last edited by LordWaffles; 09-25-10 at 11:46 AM.
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post #72 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 01:17 PM
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once again assumptions shows a person with low intellect! And a poor ability to read, digest, anaylse and comment! If you actually look at what I said you will see I didn't actually discredit it but implied rather than be and end all it should be used as a tool to assess a situation and make a balanced plan of attack! Just because the maths say it will happen isn't always true! It gives you the probabilty! Not the actual outcome! How fucking boring would it be if that was how it worked! So rather than this childish debate of irrelevance to the post use your 'skills' as a general to add to the post or don't bother, we're are suppose to be here to offer advice and tips! If you've got nothing constructive to put in why bother at all!
Sorry rant over!
So to the list
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115
I think thats quite a solid start! When you move up bulk out troops and add in some transport!
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post #73 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
Personally I think he should play nothing but flotillas of chaos spawn.
But seriously, this board would be nothing more than a communal circle jerk if we didn't try to explain the full synopsis of units, both good AND bad sides. I like tsons, I like the fluff, the empty armor is awesome. But they don't do too good in tournaments and you're mathematically better off with PMs for holding objectives.
now i have to dissagree about the PM thing, it is completely variable

if your getting Pie plated by a vindi out in the open then TS's are going to be better, but if your vsing say a few sqauds of Storm troopers then PM's are probably going to be alot more useful

EDIT: also giving him the bad points while useful is not the same as telling him to play somthing he doesnt want to play

he wanted to play Tzeentch, and yet early on someone was telling him to run Khorne (i love Khorne but i respect his choice to play Tzeentch) therefore anything related to any other type of cult troop is irralivent because he wants to play Tzeentch

it doesnt matter how much better somthing is then anything else END OF STORY

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Don't do it. If you find yourself thinking "Gee, I wish I had a Power Fist right about now" while playing IG, you did something wrong.

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post #74 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
As for regular 40k I can hypothesize that I've played more than you as I'm not the one asking for a tzeentch list that is also competitive.
22 years of 40K gaming behind me. Nice try but you fail.

You started out cool with some awesome conversion ideas but I've lost any respect I may have had for you as this thread has progressed.

You have blatantly disregarded the fact that I have stated several times this will be played in a store so the scenery will be spread across multiple games and tables so I can be pretty danm sure my opponents will HAVE to spend a few turns in the open. You are clinging to this ludicrous idea that you will always ALWAYS have cover which is just bollocks unless your table is 90% scenery with literally 1" bewteen it all.

Rather than look at the challenge presented, which was TRY and create a competitive Tzeentch list you jumped on the RARGH QUARTET high horse and have blinkered yourself from actually being helpful.




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post #75 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
Now then, you say units are not in cover. To that I will simply reply that you are bad.
Playing as an infantry templar list I'm not out of cover unless I want to be. Ever. Period. Unless you double lash me out of it. Try not playing mech and you'll see what I mean. You just have to have 50% of a walking unit TOUCH that terrain piece.
when i play with my mate on hit table (doesnt happen that offen) about 80% of the bord is open terrain, with maby a hill in the very middle and a few small bits of vision blockingness around the place, and also in all the games ive seen played down at the club near me... the same kinda situation its not completely covered, and if you want to move more then 3 inches away from your table edge you have to be out of cover


Actually I do go up to the table and immediately tell my opponent whether their list is bullocks or not. If they take offense it makes them drive harder and act stupid, and I can drink their tears for sustenance.
and this makes you an asshole


I would like to see him play an army that is capable of being used for fun and for competition. Tzeentch is exceedingly hard to do so
who gives a fuck about competition? having fun is the name of the game, im pretty sure thats on page 2 of the rulebook mate

When I said basic gear, I suppose I should have said "The standard gear given to every plague marines squad that was ever fielded with the intent to win a game". To me, that means with just the basic, everyday gear of champ with fist and double melta/plasma.
"Baisc" wargear is such a general term its not even funny... and whats wrong with dual flamer plague marines eh?


I don't believe you have ever taken a math class. We use mathhammer in order to devise a controlled lab setting to pit one thing against another. It shows us what usually happens, excluding outliers as you cannot successfully always be an outlier nor should you plan for it.
Maths hammer is used to compare one thing to another on a fair playing ground, by eliminating the luck in the equation in order to provide a "fair" comaprisin between two or more things, its NOT somthing to base your whole army around... hell i once lost 3 termis to a squad of 10 necrons in one round of firing :/


Honestly I'd advocate over the IoT vanilla marines. At least you get special weapons/cheaper
and they also have a 5++ (not a 4++) and everything that isnt a special weapon in their squad sucks.... oh and if the icon is killed (IE through a mind war) then you wasted your points


It's because I'm not a trash player that I can get cover when I need it. Planning ahead, experience and being able to read the board make it possible for my units to be in cover every time without fail(Outside lash).
One cannot be in cover were cover does not exsist, unless of corse your cheating

As for regular 40k I can hypothesize that I've played more than you as I'm not the one asking for a tzeentch list that is also competitive.
once again... competitive is not part of the equasion he just wanted help with a list of a certian theme... somthing you seem to be incapable of helping with


Also guys, how low do we have to scrape if we ignore mathhammer. Really. Solid advice I can see ignoring, dreamed up tactics and counterpoints I can see being ignored, but mathhammer? You can't fudge the numbers on it if used properly. If my math was off point it out but don't throw out the building blocks of society because you don't like the truth I bring. We need math! Math is good!
Not ignoring mathhammer... just not listeingin to the bullshit your trying to pull as maths hammer, your bending and assuming shit that makes your mathshammer worthless biest crap

a squad of 10 plague marines shooting at a squad of space marines and a squad of 10 (9+sorc) TS's shotting at a squad of space marines, the TSons are going to cause more wonds EVERY time (unless the SM's are in a bunker in which case it will be even) and as for getting shot, the PM's will live alot more bolter fire... but alot less special weapon (Plasma, melta any kind of powerweapon or Pie-plate type weapon) unless of corse they are in cover which you seem to assume they are for some odd reason....

in my honist opinion, either start being helpful and help this guy make a Tzeentch list or go harrass someone elses thread man :/

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post #76 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
once again assumptions shows a person with low intellect!
Oh this is a scientific fact? Or are you hypocritically assuming things?

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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
And a poor ability to read, digest, anaylse and comment! If you actually look at what I said you will see I didn't actually discredit it but implied rather than be and end all it should be used as a tool to assess a situation and make a balanced plan of attack! Just because the maths say it will happen isn't always true! It gives you the probabilty! Not the actual outcome! How fucking boring would it be if that was how it worked! So rather than this childish debate of irrelevance to the post use your 'skills' as a general to add to the post or don't bother, we're are suppose to be here to offer advice and tips! If you've got nothing constructive to put in why bother at all!
My constructive advice is that he can make a fully function non-competitive army. Then you guys start up with the "No they work in tournaments". That is where we are having a problem.

There isn't much you can add or take away from a tsons list to fine tune it. They're just a blob of numbers, review of them is therefore difficult to finalize. Is ten in a rhino better than five in a rhino?

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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
Sorry rant over!
So to the list
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115
I think thats quite a solid start! When you move up bulk out troops and add in some transport!
For five hundred it's not a bad way to start, and it'll be fluffy? Instead of the dual powers on the prince perhaps give the nilla marines a fist and IoGC so they don't run?

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Originally Posted by Flame80010 View Post
EDIT: also giving him the bad points while useful is not the same as telling him to play somthing he doesnt want to play

he wanted to play Tzeentch, and yet early on someone was telling him to run Khorne (i love Khorne but i respect his choice to play Tzeentch) therefore anything related to any other type of cult troop is irralivent because he wants to play Tzeentch

it doesnt matter how much better somthing is then anything else END OF STORY
Actually the SECOND you talk about viable or tournament quality, it does matter. If you're talking a generalized list that he needs help fine tuning, we can do that. Perhaps have him pose a list with the models he has?

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Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
22 years of 40K gaming behind me. Nice try but you fail.
And yet I know more about it. I do not believe you.

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Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
You started out cool with some awesome conversion ideas but I've lost any respect I may have had for you as this thread has progressed.

You have blatantly disregarded the fact that I have stated several times this will be played in a store so the scenery will be spread across multiple games and tables so I can be pretty danm sure my opponents will HAVE to spend a few turns in the open. You are clinging to this ludicrous idea that you will always ALWAYS have cover which is just bollocks unless your table is 90% scenery with literally 1" bewteen it all.
Only people with bad stores need worry about terrain problems. I thought we had rules to decide exactly how much terrain gets placed? In the BRB?

It's only ludicrous if you're a trashy player. End of story, don't be bad and you too can pimpstroll through fields of terrain.

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Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
Rather than look at the challenge presented, which was TRY and create a competitive Tzeentch list you jumped on the RARGH QUARTET high horse and have blinkered yourself from actually being helpful.
Well why don't you design an additional moon to fire into space out of buckets of air and lint?

Why don't I ask you to do impossible tasks? Tsons are -not- competitive, hence why this tension between the sides. I am telling you what does not work and what does. You are telling me that you know more, which you do not. If you want to play tzeentch, here, here is a list:
500
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115

1000
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115

1500
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115
Dp with mot wings boc and wt 200
5 tsons with sorcerer db 185
5 nilla marines with mg ac pw 115
10 nilla marines with mg/mg ac pf IoT-255
10 nilla marines with mg/mg ac pw IoT-245

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Originally Posted by Flame80010 View Post
Not ignoring mathhammer... just not listeingin to the bullshit your trying to pull as maths hammer, your bending and assuming shit that makes your mathshammer worthless biest crap
This is I think a step beyond the line. Implying someone is incorrect via false accusations is somewhat excusable, but bullshit? U mad bro?

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Originally Posted by Flame80010 View Post
a squad of 10 plague marines shooting at a squad of space marines and a squad of 10 (9+sorc) TS's shotting at a squad of space marines, the TSons are going to cause more wonds EVERY time (unless the SM's are in a bunker in which case it will be even) and as for getting shot, the PM's will live alot more bolter fire... but alot less special weapon (Plasma, melta any kind of powerweapon or Pie-plate type weapon) unless of corse they are in cover which you seem to assume they are for some odd reason....
I was debating a straight confrontation between tsons and plague marines. If you're talking tsons versus marines in the open then yes. The Tsons come out better. But this is the most optimal conditions and sentences the tsons to get shot at in return. And with them being expensive as sin you cannot afford to lose them.
Meanwhile the plague marines might not ace the squad of marines, they wont give a damn about returning fire.

As before, getting cover almost all the time is a matter of skill and your stores adherance to placing terrain by the rules.

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Originally Posted by Flame80010 View Post
in my honist opinion, either start being helpful and help this guy make a Tzeentch list or go harrass someone elses thread man :/
I've made one and several have been mentioned, yet you bunch continue to lash against the wall that tzeentch is competitive and fights on even grounds with superior lists, or the current metagame of mech lists. And it does not. Maybe instead of resorting to childish frowny faces, maybe you yourself could make a list! Shock and awe! Or debate the effectiveness of one list over another!

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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post #77 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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God bless you ignore function




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post #78 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 07:29 PM
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Ironic isnt it! although lets look at the definition of the verb assume - take to be the case or to be true; accept without verification or proof! A person who does that with out fact shows a lack of intelligence!
Secondly when did I mention tournaments???
The onther thing I'm amused by is this cover factor!? There never seems to be that much cover when I'm playing, then again I run an assault army and if they aren't in a rhino they're in combat!
I too prefer PM's but keep banging on about them is pointless,
Your 1000 point list I would change by bringing the original squads up to 9 a piece, stick a PF on the nilla squad and maybe throw in a HS choice like oblits!
So guys lets get back on track!
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post #79 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
Your 1000 point list I would change by bringing the original squads up to 9 a piece, stick a PF on the nilla squad and maybe throw in a HS choice like oblits!
So guys lets get back on track!
That's one of the plans. It's all about the 9's.

I like the idea of raptors or bikes of some description on flaming surfboards. The 5 man raptor melta squad appears to be one of the few viable anti-tank units at that level.




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post #80 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
And yet I know more about it. I do not believe you.
When they come to write the next edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, and Websters for that matter, your name, LordWaffles, is going to be the definition of arrogance.

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