Chaos, I don't get it, help this poor fool. - Page 7 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #61 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 05:35 AM
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PM have an advantage against STR 6 or lower, AP4 or higher.

AP3, STR 7 or lower, the PM have a 50/50 FnP, 1K sons have a 50/50 save.

AP2 - 1, STR 8 or higher, 1K sons win hands down.

The thing is, PM's can gain the benefits of the 1K sons inv save by using cover (not in CC of course) but the 1K sons can't gain toughness or feel no pain from standing in the right spot.

Back to Tzeentch, I can see using GoC would be fun, but hard to use. In a 500 point game, having those two tries at the start of the turn to make their costly model(or models if you get nice rolls) into spawn on your side. As the points get higher, WoC and Warptime seem like a good option.

edit: lordwaffles summed it up before me

Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing next to you may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution. -Primus

Last edited by Malgron; 09-25-10 at 05:37 AM.
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post #62 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
I'll go out here on a limb and assume you haven't ever played at a tournament.
Assumptions lead to many things but often enough they do not lead to the truth, I've played in 37 5th edition tournaments. That doesn't count the 100s of 3rd and 4th edition tournaments I have played though.


You can bring up mathammer all damn day. But it still does not change real world situations. Units are not always in cover. Units are not always going to miss x of x times, nor pass x of x saves. Sure you have probability, however games aren;t always average now are they? Run the mathhammer down on all the 'ard boys tourney's and even the world tourney's and the people should not have rolled what they did in each situation. if you run by the average roll for each match well then you might be right in the perfect little virtual calculator world you must play in, however above average rolls happen, under average rolls happen. In a fluke assault I have seen basic 10 IG guardsmen take out SS/TH termies in assualt after receiving the charge. Your mathammer uses probability to show why it shouldn't happen, but it does happen.

My assumption is that you take your models out and deploy them. Then you wait for your adversary to do the same, then you pull out your laptop, plug your army and your enemy's army into a calculator and print out the match result after 6 rounds. Then you pack up and say "Your list is bullocks." I mean obviously you don't even need dice to play a dice and miniature based war game, after all you have a combat calculator to tell you the result of every action in the game, thus proving your self an excellent mathammer player and a horrible wargamer.


Last edited by Kurrent; 09-25-10 at 05:49 AM.
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post #63 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
To LordWaffles, Rot and assorted Guardians of the Holy QuartetWhizzwang has decided to play a Tzeentch list and he's decided to use Thousand Sons, deal with it.
exactly. it doesn't matter what we think is better or not. he's asking for advice on list he built. there's nothing wrong with suggesting different builds, even drastically different builds, but if he's set on playing a certain army with a given theme, it's on the forum members to either back off this thread or give him advice, and let the OP decide what he wants to play.

it's his army he'll be playing, and he's the one buying and painting the models he wants. in the end what we think or say doesn't matter.

good hunting.

Amid the Weeping and the Woe, Accursed Daemon Thou Remain And Rot; I Know Thee Filthy as Thou Art I Know...
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post #64 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
Plague marines in cover, with basic gear cost less and do more. That is my argument.
So that's with nowt but bolters then?

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Originally Posted by ROT View Post
I'm helping him by not being very helpful; If that makes any sense at all?
It's helpful if your figuring out the flaws in how he plans to use his list without fundamentally changing that list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor Malaclypse View Post
exactly. it doesn't matter what we think is better or not. he's asking for advice on list he built. there's nothing wrong with suggesting different builds, even drastically different builds, but if he's set on playing a certain army with a given theme, it's on the forum members to either back off this thread or give him advice, and let the OP decide what he wants to play.

it's his army he'll be playing, and he's the one buying and painting the models he wants. in the end what we think or say doesn't matter.

good hunting.
Right on there, mate.

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I am enjoying all of your articles. Thank you for your help. I hope I can use your tactics along with what I learn from experience to strike fear of green in to my enemies hearts.
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post #65 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 08:15 AM
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f#*k mathhammer . . . . I jest but seriously, mathhammer is a tool to use to assess a situation its not the answer! Because oh right we roll dice and that is random! (yer probability and all that bollocks)
the dude hasn't asked for a double lash cheese filled slaughterer fest, he's asked for help to build a competent fluffy army! Whats more the main point is forgotten . . . . Thousand sons look awesome! Ahriman is a brilliant model!
My advice to the actual list run a squad of t-sons but back them up with nilla marines with mot!
With the interest sparked I think you need to do a blog now including a win rate to satisfy the nay sayers!

Last edited by jondoe297; 09-25-10 at 08:18 AM.
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post #66 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
You can bring up mathammer all damn day. But it still does not change real world situations. Units are not always in cover. Units are not always going to miss x of x times, nor pass x of x saves. Sure you have probability, however games aren;t always average now are they? Run the mathhammer down on all the 'ard boys tourney's and even the world tourney's and the people should not have rolled what they did in each situation. if you run by the average roll for each match well then you might be right in the perfect little virtual calculator world you must play in, however above average rolls happen, under average rolls happen. In a fluke assault I have seen basic 10 IG guardsmen take out SS/TH termies in assualt after receiving the charge. Your mathammer uses probability to show why it shouldn't happen, but it does happen.
You really don't want to know how many times my Bloodthirster has been slaughtered by a single unit of Guardsmen shooting lasguns from beyond Rapid Fire range....

Johndoe does have a good idea with MoT vanilla marines. Most people I know tend to take as many power weapons and AP3 as possible against me, so having that inv save on a unit that's significantly cheaper than Thousand Sons is definitely something worth considering, especially in the lower point games. And a 5+ inv save should never be underestimated--my Eldar friend has almost stopped using Wraithlords entirely because I tie them up with a unit of 5 Lesser Daemons that can't possibly hurt it, but it can't kill fast enough.

Last edited by Bloodcuddler of Khorne; 09-25-10 at 08:25 AM.
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post #67 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 08:17 AM
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yer i lost zhufor and a termie to a stupid exploding tau! Bloody snake eyes! But on the flip side 80 lasgun shots and some special weapons and only 2 pms fell! Tough buggers!

Last edited by jondoe297; 09-25-10 at 08:23 AM.
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post #68 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondoe297 View Post
Ahriman is a brilliant model!
He's running Ahriman? That's a whole new level of complaining to do now then!

Ahriman is p'raps the most useless HQ in Warhammer. If you want a competitive list; Your going to struggle with Tzeentch, but if you want ahriman in there aswell? Now your just being insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
It's helpful if your figuring out the flaws in how he plans to use his list without fundamentally changing that list.
The fundamental flaw is the fact it's Tzeentch based. Daemons are good for Tzeentch, CSM aren't.

And no, me and lord aren't getting heated, You guys are. We're just opposing, me for the laughs, Lord maybe for another reason; and because it's more interesting that everyone agreeing. So stop thinking we're flaming you, when we're not.

But if Tzeentch is a good enough theme, why has it taken 7 pages to come up with 0 good lists

Show me a really effective Tzeentch list and I'll admit in my Signature, that I was wrong about this

The guy who wishes he never sold all his warhammer. Haha. Such is life.

Last edited by ROT; 09-25-10 at 09:14 AM.
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post #69 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROT View Post
Show me a really effective Tzeentch list and I'll admit in my Signature, that I was wrong about this
DP w/ Wings, MoT, Warptime, WoC
Lord w/ Termie Armor, MoT, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta

3x Terminators w/ 1x CF, 1x HF, 3x Combi-Melta
Land Raider

9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino
9x TSons w/ Doombolt, Rhino

3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators
Defiler w/ Havoc Launcher

There you go, a Tzeentch list that is really effective at providing the player with a fun, fluffy game while being fairly competitive in a casual setting.

Sig it.

Back on topic. What are thoughts on the higher point cost armies? For this kind of thing I've always found it easiest to build the highest point list and then reduce so I'm not just haphazardly adding things.


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post #70 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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I want to see LordWaffles table, he seem to be under the impression that every single squad in every single army will be in cover 100% of the time though 100% of games.

I think he plays too much city fight and not enough normal 40K




The Infernal Council of the Lord of Nine Tzeentch C:SM Project Log
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