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post #51 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 09:04 PM
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To LordWaffles, Rot and assorted Guardians of the Holy Quartet

Whizzwang has decided to play a Tzeentch list and he's decided to use Thousand Sons, deal with it.

Now units are not perpetually in cover and if they want to take objectives they need to leave cover, which means exposing themselves.

Once they do they're vulnerable to the Thousand Sons's bolters.

Now Thousand Sons are extremely competitive, they're just a bit harder to use. Stick them in a Rhino, speed them over to an objective and then let them hold it. Against anything short of TEQ they're more than likely to hold that objective.

The only thing that you need to make sure of is that they're well supported with units that are a little more flexible than they are.

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post #52 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
To LordWaffles, Rot and assorted Guardians of the Holy Quartet

Whizzwang has decided to play a Tzeentch list and he's decided to use Thousand Sons, deal with it.
I swear to god if I see a "Help! Tzeentch against Orks!" thread in the tactica section, I'm going to blame you.

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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
Now units are not perpetually in cover and if they want to take objectives they need to leave cover, which means exposing themselves.
FUNNY STORY! They don't.

Any infantry needs to only have half a squad in, around, behind, in the general vicinity of, or be on the table containing terrain. Or even if half the squad is obscured from a rhino, not to mention the base that most terrain is put on. Point being:
Every infantry model in fifth ed gets cover saves. Period. Always.

That is fifth edition, only bad players lose cover.

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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
Once they do they're vulnerable to the Thousand Sons's bolters.
More accurate statement I could just run from cover to cover and murder them in CC, or bolter them back, considering you cost more than my squad, I just fire pistols on the way up. Or be a dick and sit in my car of choice and pop you on drive byes. Land raiders, dreadnoughts, and chimeras don't give a fuck about tzeentch boys.

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Now Thousand Sons are extremely competitive, they're just a bit harder to use. Stick them in a Rhino, speed them over to an objective and then let them hold it. Against anything short of TEQ they're more than likely to hold that objective.
What the...I don't think a statement could be more statistically incorrect? How are you going to hold an objective if you get charged? Answer? You don't. You die in CC. So your one strategy is to sit there and hope nothing with an av score or t6+ comes stomping around, or that you don't get lashed, or shot at with weight of fire. Every army in the game has an answer for tsons, and they all cost less. Tsons are bad. Tsons are awful. Do not use them in tournament play. If it's a fluffy 'fuck-around' army? Then yes, they make a characterful unit that is super neato. In tournaments you don't see them because they are bad.
In short:
They cost too much and fifth edition took all the benefit away from using them

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The only thing that you need to make sure of is that they're well supported with units that are a little more flexible than they are.
So basically build your army around sucking in competitive play. Hell if I brought an entire floatila of chaos spawn they'd do okay if I backed them up with AN ENTIRE ARMY. Tsons don't make back their points, they don't hold shit, and they die like marines for nearly TWICE the points. D: Fifth edition encourages mech lists and many low point units, anything with a 3+ takes a hit and god forbid if that 3+ unit had a 4++ save.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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post #53 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 09:59 PM
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As Lash is a shooting power, there is the chance that if you pass your perils test you may miss. It seems to me that at 9 inches away, a Winged Warptime MOT Bolt of change prince has a better chance of killing you. given the scenario of... you move up... you attempt to lash said 200pt badass away from you, you fail one of 2 ways( since on one roll you still get the power off) then you fail to execute it during your turn witht he rest of your list. Nor do you manage to assault it.

THe Tzeetch player's turn comes around he activates warptime successfully, he moves forward 6 inches towards your DP. shooting phase arrives, he successfully activates Bolt of change, hits you, and guess what s8 with re roll to wound. he will probably wound you. then obviously he charges. while your dp strikes first, the MoT prince has a better save and also since it will most likely survive it has several attacks against you that reroll hit and wound. Probably going to kill your lash prince in CC then huh?

Every situation provides itself many varibles and results. anything is possible. but based on dice rolls alone my bet is on MoT prince in a battle where its MoT prince vs Lash prince straight up.

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post #54 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
As Lash is a shooting power, there is the chance that if you pass your perils test you may miss. It seems to me that at 9 inches away, a Winged Warptime MOT Bolt of change prince has a better chance of killing you. given the scenario of... you move up... you attempt to lash said 200pt badass away from you, you fail one of 2 ways( since on one roll you still get the power off) then you fail to execute it during your turn witht he rest of your list. Nor do you manage to assault it.
Lolwat? It causes no wounds, lash -can't- miss. Also something to take into account, with identical lists, it'd be two lashers, and two uber Tzeentch princes. The uber tzeentch princes cost sixty more points between them(Sixty right?) So you're down the better part of an obliterator.
Neither army has any resistance to psychic powers, so two lashes go off and a tzeentch prince is lashed 14"(average) in any direction. He will then be abruptly gunned down, or if not, severely wounded, and charged.

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THe Tzeetch player's turn comes around he activates warptime successfully, he moves forward 6 inches towards your DP. shooting phase arrives, he successfully activates Bolt of change, hits you, and guess what s8 with re roll to wound. he will probably wound you. then obviously he charges. while your dp strikes first, the MoT prince has a better save and also since it will most likely survive it has several attacks against you that reroll hit and wound. Probably going to kill your lash prince in CC then huh?
The tzeentch prince is also just a beatstick, he has no synergy with the army list, he's made specifically for the purpose of smashing faces, the problem with that style of prince is A) he costs thirty points more B ) he brings nothing to help the army directly and C ) if he charges through cover he goes last.

If a slaaneshi and tzeentch prince charge the same target, most of the time the slaaneshi prince will have it out of cover, and it'll go first, whereas while the tzeentch prince rerolls everything, he also goes last.

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Every situation provides itself many varibles and results. anything is possible. but based on dice rolls alone my bet is on MoT prince in a battle where its MoT prince vs Lash prince straight up.
Yes, he is, because that's all he does. You're trading a more expensive prince for a less expensive one, and you surrender field control.

That being said I honestly enjoy the tzeentch princes with just warptime, I believe them to be nearly as good. But they are very selfish.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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post #55 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 10:33 PM
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Waffles, if you want to blame me for any Tzzentch versus Orks threads, please do so.

I've used Thousand Sons quite a bit and it took me a while to get used to them. Now they are pretty limited in what they can do. I'll agree you don't want them getting anywhere near combat and against anything with a good invulnerable save, they're screwed.

What they are good at though is holding objectives, which are usually far away from cover (at least they are with the limited terrain in my local GW), so your enemy has to expose his unit to your fire.

If they're properly supported by stuff that can take out transports or force a unit out of cover then they can work.

Ultimately you just have to learn how to use them. Once you've done that they're a great unit.

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I am enjoying all of your articles. Thank you for your help. I hope I can use your tactics along with what I learn from experience to strike fear of green in to my enemies hearts.

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post #56 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 11:05 PM
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The reason i was battering on about my Khorne in perspective, Is because if your going to learn to play your army well, your need to sit down and think realistically, ignoring your own bias.

When you learn your Army choice isn't the best; You can learn to play your Best, which speaks louder than fluff.

If this thread was 6 people telling him Tzeentch is awesome; He'd go into a game expecting to win and get slaughtered.

But because there are 2 people battering him saying his list isn't the best; He's gonna think about it alot more, and go on to play alot better.

It's not like i'm personally taking a grudge against him for picking Tzeentch. It's whatever floats your boat. I like Khorne so what.

I'm helping him by not being very helpful; If that makes any sense at all?

The guy who wishes he never sold all his warhammer. Haha. Such is life.
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post #57 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by The Sullen One View Post
Waffles, if you want to blame me for any Tzzentch versus Orks threads, please do so.

I've used Thousand Sons quite a bit and it took me a while to get used to them. Now they are pretty limited in what they can do. I'll agree you don't want them getting anywhere near combat and against anything with a good invulnerable save, they're screwed.

What they are good at though is holding objectives, which are usually far away from cover (at least they are with the limited terrain in my local GW), so your enemy has to expose his unit to your fire.

If they're properly supported by stuff that can take out transports or force a unit out of cover then they can work.

Ultimately you just have to learn how to use them. Once you've done that they're a great unit.

Plague marines in cover, with basic gear cost less and do more. That is my argument.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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post #58 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
2D6 til the scorcerererer dies isn't it? Then 1D6
that is correct ^.^

Slow and purposeful gives you relentless :D

EDIT:

wow... alot fo rage in this thread....

and also we wernt telling him Tzeentch was awsome...

we were informing him of the advantages of Tzeentch since he established that this is the army he wants to play simple as that

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Don't do it. If you find yourself thinking "Gee, I wish I had a Power Fist right about now" while playing IG, you did something wrong.

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post #59 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
Plague marines in cover, with basic gear cost less and do more. That is my argument.
I wouldn't say they do more without any options, cost less maybe, but do more no.

a basic 9 man Tsons squad with Asp required Sorcerer and power might cost a bit more, but it can do more. Unlike PMs, they don't need cover, and unlike PM's they can hold any objective without fear of a heavy flamer ruining their day. Bolt of Change can knock out any dread coming close enough, and you've got more krak grenades than a standard 7 man Plague squad. the base unit price tson and pm is the same. the only difference is the champ cost. Tsons have an expensive "champ" but that champ can pack a big shooty bunch. Also unlike Plague Marines Tsons pack a force weapon in the squad which bones Mc's in CC as well as a better gunline fore killing hoards. 8, ap3 bolters are better than 7 ap 5 bolters at base costs don't you agree?

a squad with 8 tsons and 1 sorc with bolt of change is 269pts (9models)

7 plague marines basic package... 161 points
They have no champ, no real anti tank, etc. if you want to talk basic squad that is... I think if the two squads faced off, even with cover I am positive that the Tsons would kill them easy enough. its 108 points more expensive for a reason. against MEQ Tsons have the better chance

Fully kitted, The plague marines with champ, pfist and x2 plasma come in at 231 pts, and they still get blown away by the Tsons in a straight up fight between the two squads. 16 S4 AP3 shots + 1 S8 AP 1 BoC in my experience = a dead squad of Plaguers, at least at my FLGS, but then again RL dice roll differently than Mathammer combat calculators. they don't take into consideration cocked dice on the table and the free re-roll they grant nor do they take into consideration that it is possible that some dice hit the floor and have to be picked up to be rolled again...

not mention that tsons can survive CC with a pfist unlike plague marines

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post #60 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-25-10, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
I wouldn't say they do more without any options, cost less maybe, but do more no.

a basic 9 man Tsons squad with Asp required Sorcerer and power might cost a bit more, but it can do more. Unlike PMs, they don't need cover, and unlike PM's they can hold any objective without fear of a heavy flamer ruining their day. Bolt of Change can knock out any dread coming close enough, and you've got more krak grenades than a standard 7 man Plague squad. the base unit price tson and pm is the same. the only difference is the champ cost. Tsons have an expensive "champ" but that champ can pack a big shooty bunch. Also unlike Plague Marines Tsons pack a force weapon in the squad which bones Mc's in CC as well as a better gunline fore killing hoards. 8, ap3 bolters are better than 7 ap 5 bolters at base costs don't you agree?
If I countermand each point will that be enough to end this discussion or will you all keep needing to be proved that tsons are mathematically inferior again, my love to be a champion of competitive play is waning. But I'll answer this one.

Firstly, bolt of change had -better- kill that dreadnought(btw pass a psychic test, hit on a 3+, damaged on a 5+, impotent on a 3+(immobile). That's what...discounting the psychic power that's a 18% chance? Somewhere thereabouts to reliably pop a dread with it? Seems pretty shit to 1/5th of the time stop a dread.
Speaking of that not killed dread, if he gets into combat with you, as a tson, you can't do dick to it. So squad wiped for 130 pts worth of dread. Nice. The plague marines would just fist it to death.

Moving right along:
Plague marines don't give two shits about heavy flamers, tsons fear them more (3+, t5 with FnP compared to t4 with just a 3+) Do I need to keep going at this point? That's not even an opinion that's just highly incorrect.
Hell even against ap3 templates the plague marines come out better. T5>T4 FnP=4++

For killing hordes, and mcs, I'd always go with the plague marines. They get more ap2/ap1 shots off(double melta/plasma) before getting charged, they reduce the attacks coming at them, and they get a fist to squash big mcs. Daemons don't give a fuck about force weapons and neither do princes, the fist is always more reliable.

As for hordes, do I need to really explain why it's a bad idea to roll ap3 on orks? Or describe what happens when the tsons get charged? Even ten orks fuckstomp tsons in equal numbers if they get the charge. Tsons are just awful.

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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
a squad with 8 tsons and 1 sorc with bolt of change is 269pts (9models)

7 plague marines basic package... 161 points
They have no champ, no real anti tank, etc. if you want to talk basic squad that is... I think if the two squads faced off, even with cover I am positive that the Tsons would kill them easy enough. its 108 points more expensive for a reason. against MEQ Tsons have the better chance
Hurpadeedurpadeedoo.

An apocalypse warhound titan is 1250 pts and will ALWAYS kill the tson unit. What the fuck is your point that if you don't arm soldiers they die? Obviously. Use real examples for why tsons are better, not garbage arguments.

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Fully kitted, The plague marines with champ, pfist and x2 plasma come in at 231 pts, and they still get blown away by the Tsons in a straight up fight between the two squads. 16 S4 AP3 shots + 1 S8 AP 1 BoC in my experience = a dead squad of Plaguers
See this is data, this is good.

I'll go out here on a limb and assume you haven't ever played at a tournament. Let's assume both squads get out of their cars and fire simultaneous from double tap distance(Remember! Cover saves!)
Tsons:
1s8 shot= 2/3 hit= one no FnP wound(.5 dies)
16 shots= 12 hits = 4 wounds= 4 cover saves and FnP saves(1 dies)
So two whole plague marines? Yippy skippy. Let's see the answer back:
4s7 shots= 3 hits = 3 invul saves(1.5 dies)
14 shots= 9 hits = 4.5 wounds(Of which 1.5 dies)
So nurgle boys trade 1.5 marines for 3.0 worth of tsons. Neat. Math is good.


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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
at least at my FLGS, but then again RL dice roll differently than Mathammer combat calculators.
This is not a good argument. Use math.

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Originally Posted by Kurrent View Post
they don't take into consideration cocked dice on the table and the free re-roll they grant nor do they take into consideration that it is possible that some dice hit the floor and have to be picked up to be rolled again...

not mention that tsons can survive CC with a pfist unlike plague marines
Really? So you'd say the tsons beat a squad with a pfist? Let's say a squad like...Plague marines? Even if tsons charge they get one attack a piece, Plagues get 2 base each.
so for your example:
9tsons = 5 hits = 2 wounds =(0.08? dead plagues?)
Sorceror= 3 swings= 2 hits = 1 dead plague marine

Plague marines swing back(Down to five and the champ):
10Attk=5 hits = 3 wounds = 1 dead tson
2 fist= 1 hit = 1 wound = .5 dead tson
That's if the tsons get the goddamned charge. *drops the mic*

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Originally Posted by Flame80010 View Post
wow... alot fo rage in this thread....

and also we wernt telling him Tzeentch was awsome...

we were informing him of the advantages of Tzeentch since he established that this is the army he wants to play simple as that
Personally I think he should play nothing but flotillas of chaos spawn.
But seriously, this board would be nothing more than a communal circle jerk if we didn't try to explain the full synopsis of units, both good AND bad sides. I like tsons, I like the fluff, the empty armor is awesome. But they don't do too good in tournaments and you're mathematically better off with PMs for holding objectives.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

It's not a question of who will let me, it's a question of who will stop me.
You fight for nothing! You are nothing!

Last edited by LordWaffles; 09-25-10 at 04:13 AM.
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