I wouldn't say they do more without any options, cost less maybe, but do more no.
a basic 9 man Tsons squad with Asp required Sorcerer and power might cost a bit more, but it can do more. Unlike PMs, they don't need cover, and unlike PM's they can hold any objective without fear of a heavy flamer ruining their day. Bolt of Change can knock out any dread coming close enough, and you've got more krak grenades than a standard 7 man Plague squad. the base unit price tson and pm is the same. the only difference is the champ cost. Tsons have an expensive "champ" but that champ can pack a big shooty bunch. Also unlike Plague Marines Tsons pack a force weapon in the squad which bones Mc's in CC as well as a better gunline fore killing hoards. 8, ap3 bolters are better than 7 ap 5 bolters at base costs don't you agree?
If I countermand each point will that be enough to end this discussion or will you all keep needing to be proved that tsons are mathematically inferior again, my love to be a champion of competitive play is waning. But I'll answer this one.
Firstly, bolt of change had -better- kill that dreadnought(btw pass a psychic test, hit on a 3+, damaged on a 5+, impotent on a 3+(immobile). That's what...discounting the psychic power that's a 18% chance? Somewhere thereabouts to reliably pop a dread with it? Seems pretty shit to 1/5th of the time stop a dread.
Speaking of that not killed dread, if he gets into combat with you, as a tson, you can't do dick to it. So squad wiped for 130 pts worth of dread. Nice. The plague marines would just fist it to death.
Moving right along:
Plague marines don't give two shits about heavy flamers, tsons fear them more (3+, t5 with FnP compared to t4 with just a 3+) Do I need to keep going at this point? That's not even an opinion that's just highly incorrect.
Hell even against ap3 templates the plague marines come out better. T5>T4 FnP=4++
For killing hordes, and mcs, I'd always go with the plague marines. They get more ap2/ap1 shots off(double melta/plasma) before getting charged, they reduce the attacks coming at them, and they get a fist to squash big mcs. Daemons don't give a fuck about force weapons and neither do princes, the fist is always more reliable.
As for hordes, do I need to really explain why it's a bad idea to roll ap3 on orks? Or describe what happens when the tsons get charged? Even ten orks fuckstomp tsons in equal numbers if they get the charge. Tsons are just awful.
a squad with 8 tsons and 1 sorc with bolt of change is 269pts (9models)
7 plague marines basic package... 161 points
They have no champ, no real anti tank, etc. if you want to talk basic squad that is... I think if the two squads faced off, even with cover I am positive that the Tsons would kill them easy enough. its 108 points more expensive for a reason. against MEQ Tsons have the better chance
An apocalypse warhound titan is 1250 pts and will ALWAYS kill the tson unit. What the fuck is your point that if you don't arm soldiers they die? Obviously. Use real examples for why tsons are better, not garbage arguments.
Fully kitted, The plague marines with champ, pfist and x2 plasma come in at 231 pts, and they still get blown away by the Tsons in a straight up fight between the two squads. 16 S4 AP3 shots + 1 S8 AP 1 BoC in my experience = a dead squad of Plaguers
See this is data, this is good.
I'll go out here on a limb and assume you haven't ever played at a tournament. Let's assume both squads get out of their cars and fire simultaneous from double tap distance(Remember! Cover saves!)
1s8 shot= 2/3 hit= one no FnP wound(.5 dies)
16 shots= 12 hits = 4 wounds= 4 cover saves and FnP saves(1 dies)
So two whole plague marines? Yippy skippy. Let's see the answer back:
4s7 shots= 3 hits = 3 invul saves(1.5 dies)
14 shots= 9 hits = 4.5 wounds(Of which 1.5 dies)
So nurgle boys trade 1.5 marines for 3.0 worth of tsons. Neat. Math is good.
at least at my FLGS, but then again RL dice roll differently than Mathammer combat calculators.
This is not a good argument. Use math.
they don't take into consideration cocked dice on the table and the free re-roll they grant nor do they take into consideration that it is possible that some dice hit the floor and have to be picked up to be rolled again...
not mention that tsons can survive CC with a pfist unlike plague marines
Really? So you'd say the tsons beat a squad with a pfist? Let's say a squad like...Plague marines? Even if tsons charge they get one attack a piece, Plagues get 2 base each.
so for your example:
9tsons = 5 hits = 2 wounds =(0.08? dead plagues?)
Sorceror= 3 swings= 2 hits = 1 dead plague marine
Plague marines swing back(Down to five and the champ):
10Attk=5 hits = 3 wounds = 1 dead tson
2 fist= 1 hit = 1 wound = .5 dead tson
That's if the tsons get the goddamned charge. *drops the mic*
wow... alot fo rage in this thread....
and also we wernt telling him Tzeentch was awsome...
we were informing him of the advantages of Tzeentch since he established that this is the army he wants to play simple as that
Personally I think he should play nothing but flotillas of chaos spawn.
But seriously, this board would be nothing more than a communal circle jerk if we didn't try to explain the full synopsis of units, both good AND bad sides. I like tsons, I like the fluff, the empty armor is awesome. But they don't do too good in tournaments and you're mathematically better off with PMs for holding objectives.