Chaos, I don't get it, help this poor fool. - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #31 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 12:37 AM Thread Starter
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This has turned into a really cool thread guys and I have to thank you for it. Lots of really cool input, which I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting as I've shied away from Chaos until recently due to the tidal wave of "we've been screwed" posts.

Wasn't til I picked the book up for a proper read I saw all the awesome choices.

I'm tempted to project blog the army, but I paint fast so there won't ever be start -> work so far -> complete type bloggage, I buy, open, paint, base, finish in the same afternoon.


I'll see what I can do as I'm seriously itching to get this army up and running now.




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post #32 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
You do understand that you have to survive to get up to that 6" range, then roll a psychic power(Usually on 3d6 for nids, eldar) pass the psychic wards(5+ for wolves, dice off most other armies), then roll a 5 or 6 to affect a marine? It's such a waste.

By itself, yes. Although if you can't get a Winged Prince with a 4+ inv save up there quickly, you're either an idiot, really unlucky, or they focus-fired it and the rest of your army gets to have fun. You're going to be getting your prince into close combat anyway, so why is the 6" range an issue?

Also, unless it's a team game, a massive free-for-all or a really funky Apocalypse game, they won't have to deal with BOTH 3d6 psychic tests and the psychic wards, just one or the other. And if that's enough to deter you, by that logic psykers in general shouldn't ever be used.

As for the roll of 5 or 6 to affect a marine, while that's true, it has those same odds against just about anything Space Marines can throw at you. If you use it on something like a Librarian with a Storm Shield, you have the exact same odds of killing it as if you'd wounded it with a lascannon or a power weapon, except that if you pull it off you get a free Chaos Spawn, and you can do it twice while in close combat against anything in range. You don't use it to kill that one little Tactical Marine--you use it to play the odds and hope you can insta-gib that Bloodthirster that's at least 250 pts by itself and normally immune to instant death. Moderate risk, high reward.


Compare this to jaws of the world wolf. Which instagibs all targets in a 24" line, not just one. Gift of chaos is really only good in apoc games, because in order to have it you need a tzeentch prince with warptime and wings(Sporting 170 points here) or a sorceror(who gets fisted more reliably then he spawns things.)

Why are you comparing it to a power Chaos can't take? That's kinda like saying Tyranids shouldn't take Gaunts because Ork Boyz have higher stats. Unless he wants to piss someone off by saying his Space Wolf Rune Priest turned to Chaos?

If you want to instant death things you could always use your force weapon, it has better odds. Or use the slaaneshi chaos lord with ID on every swing(Fuck those nids right up)

... didn't you just say he shouldn't use a sorcerer? Besides, with a sorcerer he'd have the option of either/or, so he could use his force weapon on high toughness targets and Gift on low ones.

Also if gift is done in the shooting phase and you NOMINATE a model, you MUST charge it.

"A psyker may use this power at the beginning of his turn." pg 88 Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can't use it in the shooting phase.


In short; Lash is still better hurpadurpadoo

The math says yes, you are absolutely correct. My past games say that if I get lucky MAYBE it will set up a unit or two for some pie plate fun or get some Pathfinders out of cover before they get focus fired and die a screaming cheesy slaaneshy-pink death. Like someone said before, people expect the LashZerkerPlagueOblit list now, and plan for it accordingly. Moving a unit 2d6 doesn't help that much when they're on the top floor of a building in their deployment zone.
Although the hurpadurpadoo almost had me convinced ;-)

Last edited by Bloodcuddler of Khorne; 09-24-10 at 02:28 AM.
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post #33 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 05:06 AM
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I am no expert but lash has limited effect against mech lists. If your opponent shows up with everything inside armor then there will be limited lash benefit initially.

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post #34 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
You do understand that you have to survive to get up to that 6" range, then roll a psychic power(Usually on 3d6 for nids, eldar) pass the psychic wards(5+ for wolves, dice off most other armies), then roll a 5 or 6 to affect a marine? It's such a waste.
this is the same reason i don't like Lash (or Chaos psyker powers, TBH) and add that your opponent may have all this anti-psyker ability in a transport, so Lash is even less effective.

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post #35 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IntereoVivo View Post
Sacrilege! Dark Eldar are awesome! They have Ravagers and Wyches and....Ravagers....

OK fine.
The odd part is, I'm actually thinking about picking up Dark Eldar while they're still cheap, before the new codex comes out. While they're the only codex where I'll admit it actually has some things that are entirely useless, the parts that aren't are pretty freaking cool. That and my friends and I rarely play objective games, so that makes Wych armies actually viable.

But I digress.

And yes, Lash princes are pretty screwed at first in a mech army, which is why I no longer use them if my Imperial Guard buddy is playing (unless we're on the same side, of course.) While they can be good once guys get out of their transports or they get popped open, by then more often than not they've poured a bunch of fire power into them and they're long dead. Which is why I do the bolt+gift combo: two Bolts fired at a unit of Leman Russes can be a nice way to start a game off, then next turn fly into an infantry unit and turn his sergeants with power fists into Spawn. Good times.

OH! There is one thing I forgot to mention.... the big downside to gift+bolt or gift+warptime tzeentch princes is that they cost 205 points each, so unless a game is at least 2000 pts I usually only run one, unless I know it won't be an objective game and can skimp on Troops. Fortunately, my friends and I typically do 2500 pt straight up kill each other games, so that works out... still something to keep in mind though.

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post #36 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 07:27 AM
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I wish people would stop exaggerating. A squad of 11 zerks with a champ and a pf is 271pts
For almost the same price you get 9 tsons with bolt of change.269pts
Ok its 2 models but it is not the end of the world. The thing is tsons get more points efficient in larger numbers. Due to the expense of the sorcerer. The squad above i run in my current 2000pt list. With kharn and 2 squads of zerks.

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post #37 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
By itself, yes. Although if you can't get a Winged Prince with a 4+ inv save up there quickly, you're either an idiot, really unlucky, or they focus-fired it and the rest of your army gets to have fun. You're going to be getting your prince into close combat anyway, so why is the 6" range an issue?
Actually the prince is usually dead by the 12" mark when facing any competitive list. His best feature is that he draws fire from the rest of your list, if he GETS there that's a nice add-on.
Let's assume the gift of chaos:
IE: Against a space wolf at 1500? The SW will have three squads of LF with missiles. So that's 12 missiles at the dp a turn:
8 hits, 6 wounds(I'll even round down), 3 saves with tzeentch, 2 saves with anything else.
And there. You are dead.

Against a lasher:
You bound forward and flick off a lash, drawing one of the squads either into an unfirable position, or into combat. Either way, that's four less missiles coming at you and mathematically you'll survive the shots.
8 shots 6 hit 5 wound 2 saves

Not the best case scenario, but with double lashers you definitely survive because now two LF squads are SOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
Also, unless it's a team game, a massive free-for-all or a really funky Apocalypse game, they won't have to deal with BOTH 3d6 psychic tests and the psychic wards, just one or the other. And if that's enough to deter you, by that logic psykers in general shouldn't ever be used.
It's a hard knock life, I'm just explaining why taking the longer ranged psychic power is better, more threat range=more turns of use.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
As for the roll of 5 or 6 to affect a marine, while that's true, it has those same odds against just about anything Space Marines can throw at you. If you use it on something like a Librarian with a Storm Shield, you have the exact same odds of killing it as if you'd wounded it with a lascannon or a power weapon, except that if you pull it off you get a free Chaos Spawn, and you can do it twice while in close combat against anything in range. You don't use it to kill that one little Tactical Marine--you use it to play the odds and hope you can insta-gib that Bloodthirster that's at least 250 pts by itself and normally immune to instant death. Moderate risk, high reward.
It's a (after psychic nonsense) one in six chance to kill something, or lose 150ish points(because that thirster will rock you)
And against the librarian with a lascannon? he's got a 3+ save at best, if we're just going with what you need to roll, it's a 3+ to hit
2+ to wound, and a 3+ to save. If we discount psychic powers going wonky, as being equivalent to the lascannon hitting, then you're killing him on 2/6 die sides rather then just one die side(Failed invul versus successful spawnage)

Also you don't WANT a chaos spawn. EVER. It strikes last and provides free wounds to the enemy, the enemy that strikes before it and even if it's a goddamn tau firewarrior squad, they roll it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
Why are you comparing it to a power Chaos can't take? That's kinda like saying Tyranids shouldn't take Gaunts because Ork Boyz have higher stats. Unless he wants to piss someone off by saying his Space Wolf Rune Priest turned to Chaos?
You missed the point entirely. I'm saying why take an overcosted mini version of something when we have our own special spell that nobody else can duplicate outside of daemons? Or more to the point:
If Jaws had a 6" pick a target rules, no space wolf player would take it. Why would we take Gift if our hqs cost approximately the same(sorceror vs rune priest) because at the infantry level we're not apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
... didn't you just say he shouldn't use a sorcerer? Besides, with a sorcerer he'd have the option of either/or, so he could use his force weapon on high toughness targets and Gift on low ones.
I was giving him other options instead of raping his new idea. If you want me to just say it's a bad idea and he'll get rolled at tournaments, I can, I was opting for the nicer "Maybe try this instead for the same result without hobbling your army"

Plus if he's using gift on a target, then charging, he will lose that combat because the spawn is so fuckawful. He'd be better off taking a useful psychic power that adds to the army, like lash. It synergizes with everything.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
Also if gift is done in the shooting phase and you NOMINATE a model, you MUST charge it.

"A psyker may use this power at the beginning of his turn." pg 88 Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can't use it in the shooting phase.
You got me pardner.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcuddler of Khorne View Post
The math says yes, you are absolutely correct. My past games say that if I get lucky MAYBE it will set up a unit or two for some pie plate fun or get some Pathfinders out of cover before they get focus fired and die a screaming cheesy slaaneshy-pink death. Like someone said before, people expect the LashZerkerPlagueOblit list now, and plan for it accordingly. Moving a unit 2d6 doesn't help that much when they're on the top floor of a building in their deployment zone.
Please try not to correct people using one big quote, my counterpoints are harder to find.

What are you talking about. So you're saying the us military shouldn't bring guns because terrorists expect it? We should instead bring mud and sticks? Oh man they totally won't expect this SNOWBALL. OH GOD THEY BROUGHT GUNS.

Unless a community is overwhelmed by chaos players nobody metas against the good list enough to change it. Really, it's like this:
Chaos marines are marines. They have obliterators(just 2 wound, t4 terminator, havocs) lashing princes(so anti psycher and the usual anti-marine stuff), and for plagues? Bring melta/plasma. Every army already brings these things, metaing for chaos is just bringing a solid list with maybe anti psyker, that's it.

Also all the good lists are mech these days, the idea is that you blow apart the cars and lash the ld9 guardsmen out and either they get pinned, or you murder them.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

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post #38 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 09:05 AM
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I can see the issue with spawns "providing wounds" with a Sorcerer, but if you're doing it with a Prince both he and whatever spawns he makes are Fearless anyway, so even if they technically lose combat it really doesn't matter. Even if it doesn't live long enough to attack, if they direct attacks at the spawn instead of the prince, that's helping the prince survive that much longer--it's still T5 with 3 wounds, so it'll still take either multiple power fist hits or some relatively lucky rolls to kill immediately. It might give them Victory Points, but I thought most of the time those were only used for tie breakers anyway.

And countering another list isn't always just about what you bring, it's what you do with it. Lash doesn't help much when you need to move the enemy more than around 7" to get them into a good position, so putting those space wolf long fangs on the top floor of a 3 story building pretty much makes them lash-proof, for instance.

For the Bloodthirster example, it's more along the lines of 2 1 in 6 chances of Spawning it just before running the hell away, since you use Gift before your movement anyway. Perhaps a better example would have been virtually any Special Character, a Farseer, a Trygon--something big and nasty and expensive and usually hard to kill.

As for the us military analogy, yes, I actually do think we're playing right into their hands and should do something completely different, but I'll save that discussion for another time and place.

Last edited by Bloodcuddler of Khorne; 09-24-10 at 09:13 AM.
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post #39 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by shaantitus View Post
I wish people would stop exaggerating. A squad of 11 zerks with a champ and a pf is 271pts
No... You get 8 'Zerkers in a Rhino with a Champ and a powerfist for 258. Who really runs 11 'Zerkers out of a Rhino.

So don't try and make out that TSons aren't overpriced by comparing it to a unit that isn't EVER run.

Fact of the matter is I play a Tzeentch guy constantly, and My Khorne win everytime.

4++ Invulnerable is good, But the fact is 2x Battlecannon still makes you lose 100+ Points a turn.

I admit a 4++ DP is good, but when there is nothing else scary in the list, OBVIOUSLY it's going to be priority #1

Take that down and your left facing models with a max range of 24, walking at a max speed of 6" a turn. Which is when i kick it with a drink, and just unload everything on them, and wait for the charge.

Every Thread needs someone opposing, seeing as how your all wanking off Tzeentch right now, I just thought I'd be the ass who opposes. :D

The guy who wishes he never sold all his warhammer. Haha. Such is life.
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post #40 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-24-10, 10:48 AM
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So, I know I should be letting shaantitus answer this, but I'm bored.

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Originally Posted by ROT View Post
No... You get 8 'Zerkers in a Rhino with a Champ and a powerfist for 258. Who really runs 11 'Zerkers out of a Rhino.

So don't try and make out that TSons aren't overpriced by comparing it to a unit that isn't EVER run.
No one. "11 'Zerkers" don't fit in a Rhino. Oh, and statistically, 8 rapid-firing TSons will kill more guys then an 8 man 'Zerk squad with a PF Champ. Don't believe me? Check it out-->TSons/Zerks

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Fact of the matter is I play a Tzeentch guy constantly, and My Khorne win everytime.
Which, of course proves that Khorne is superior. Obviously it has nothing to do with you being a competent general.

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4++ Invulnerable is good, But the fact is 2x Battlecannon still makes you lose 100+ Points a turn.
Actually, 95.841 points a turn. That is, assuming the Sorcerer survives. And that each Battlecannon gets 5 hits, which, at 2" coherency, is unlikely. Link

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Originally Posted by ROT View Post
I admit a 4++ DP is good, but when there is nothing else scary in the list, OBVIOUSLY it's going to be priority #1

Take that down and your left facing models with a max range of 24, walking at a max speed of 6" a turn. Which is when i kick it with a drink, and just unload everything on them, and wait for the charge.
This I totally agree with. But you'll have the problem regardless of what you bring.

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Every Thread needs someone opposing, seeing as how your all wanking off Tzeentch right now, I just thought I'd be the ass who opposes. :D
You called it, we didn't.


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