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post #11 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Tzeentch stays I'm afraid.

It looks to be the harder army to build and I like a challenge. It'd be nice to do something other than double lash oblit spam after the campaign and use it as a characterful army once the ZOMGNEEDTOWIN is over.

In small games I really like the idea of an entire army of AP3 guns and a 4+ invul for my entire army. Granted Nurgle has a 4+ uber save too, but AP3... AP3!!! what's not to like?

That and I really want to go to town on a pink and blue army, my test pieces are looking nice and I've painted a shit load of red recently so not feeling the Khorne vibe and Nurgle is my least favourite God.




The Infernal Council of the Lord of Nine Tzeentch C:SM Project Log
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post #12 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 08:40 PM
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Yeah but remember when you say a whole army of them. You'll struggle to afford more than 2 troops choices in 1500.

If 2 squads roughly costs 700 points... 2 Troops in 1500 is tragic to say the least.

The guy who wishes he never sold all his warhammer. Haha. Such is life.
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post #13 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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yeah but I like to win via the 2 greatest words in the English language.......
DE FAULT!

I win when you have no men left.

besides, I have some awesome ideas for Tzeentch bikes and Raptors I want to make and I love the idea of a fullt themed army just for looks.

For the campaign though, anything goes. I'm quite partial to the early idea from Lord Waffles about Tzeentchyfying zerkers or plague marines.


So far from all your bickering I have gathered the following (Tzeentch loves it when you bicker)

1: HQ = Daemon Prince... end of story. I'd Imagine Ahriman is rather hard in larger games though

2: Zerkers are awesome and must somehow be included

3: HS choices should be maxed out on Oblit's.... possessed Vindicator is an acceptable alternative.

4: I'm nuts for planning a thousand sons army as they are way too expensive. Are they actually over pointed though for what they do? Surely a pair of 9 man sons units in 1500 holding objectives while other stuff molests the enemy is pretty good?


EDIT: the master plan I was aiming for in the looks department in 3k is this

Ahriman
DP warptime + stuff

9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons (maybe tzeentched up zerkers)
9 Tsons (maybe Tzeenthed up plague marines)

9 Possessed
9 Bikers
9 Raptors

9 Squads of 9 with assorted upgrades




The Infernal Council of the Lord of Nine Tzeentch C:SM Project Log

Last edited by Whizzwang; 09-22-10 at 09:38 PM.
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post #14 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 10:26 PM
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wow, thats a lot of nines O.o but i must say, tzeentched up zerkers? i like i tip my metaphorical hat to you sir

'If you fail to prepare then you'd better prepare to fail'
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post #15 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
yeah but I like to win via the 2 greatest words in the English language.......
DE FAULT!

I win when you have no men left.
The sad part here is that ard boyz had a gametype in the second round where even if you tabled somebody you didnt massacre unless you held objectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
besides, I have some awesome ideas for Tzeentch bikes and Raptors I want to make and I love the idea of a fullt themed army just for looks.

For the campaign though, anything goes. I'm quite partial to the early idea from Lord Waffles about Tzeentchyfying zerkers or plague marines.


So far from all your bickering I have gathered the following (Tzeentch loves it when you bicker)

1: HQ = Daemon Prince... end of story. I'd Imagine Ahriman is rather hard in larger games though

2: Zerkers are awesome and must somehow be included

3: HS choices should be maxed out on Oblit's.... possessed Vindicator is an acceptable alternative.

4: I'm nuts for planning a thousand sons army as they are way too expensive. Are they actually over pointed though for what they do? Surely a pair of 9 man sons units in 1500 holding objectives while other stuff molests the enemy is pretty good?
Let me start off by saying I love, love, love themed armies and will forgive any army makeup if they look good. But yeah what you may want to do is like hollow out some of the tzeentch boy bodies, create like damaged suits with a painted glow coming from the inside for the plague marine look alikes. Have the fluff be something like these suits are held together by the very force of tzeentchs might and only the strongest cannon or densest torrent of gunfire can fell one completely.

For the 'zerked tzeentch boys, you could have an entire troupe of sorcerors that have all perma cast a smaller version of 'warptime' on themselves. They see everything slower during the charge, hence the additional I, WS, and since they can pick where they strike, addition S on the charge. Iunno, I always thought chaos armies always looked better without forcing god troops down peoples throat, rather have the marines exemplify that force(tzeentch: ignore magic attacks with invul, khorne:battle champion, nurgle: hardcore survivers, slaanesh:uuuh...)

Ahriman would be fine if his spells didn't blow. His biggest problem is that he didn't pull his spell from slaanesh. Lash makes you win games more than the other spells.

Putting a final cap on the TSon argument, you are paying for a model that has two things going for it over the generic bolter marine(You dont get two attacks base either like a chaos marine would).
The first being ap3 bolters. This sounds amazing, double tap a squad of marines and kill them all? Awesome! The problem comes in where this is coverhammer 40k, it is hard as hell to catch anyone out of cover who does not want to be there. And a 4+ while worse than a 3+ is still only fifty percent casualties, which isn't what you paid for.

The other amazing thing they have is a 4+ invulnerable save. This works while they get shot at, and in CC against big gribblies. The first would work fine, but again this is coverhammer, we already have a 4+ cover save at all times from existing on the board. And invuls in CC? While this means they last longer, it only really exists to make them an expensive tarpit unit, since you only swing first and don't have access to powertoys beyond the aspiring sorceror you're REALLY hoping that sorc hits and wounds for all three swings, otherwise you get pasted. Plus any large volleys of wounds kill tsons just as fast as a normal marine.

So in short you're paying, if I remember correctly, like 300 for a full squad of nine of them plus the sorceror. This squad has no long range capabilities outside the sorc if you buy him that power. So basically you're a tac squad with an ap3 bolter, and 4+ invul save, these benefits cost you a marine and a half. They're just too expensive and don't fill a role the army doesn't already have covered.

Zerks murder anything with armor 3+(as do double plasma PMs), and the 4+ cover save we always get fixes the 4+ invul at range, and as for CC? The tsons would eventually lose, while the zerks or PMs might actually win. Hope this might shed some more light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
Ahriman
DP warptime + stuff

9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons
9 Tsons (maybe tzeentched up zerkers)
9 Tsons (maybe Tzeenthed up plague marines)

9 Possessed
9 Bikers
9 Raptors

9 Squads of 9 with assorted upgrades
possessed, bikers, and raptors are all things you may not want to include if you plan competitive games, neither are ahriman and the tsons.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

It's not a question of who will let me, it's a question of who will stop me.
You fight for nothing! You are nothing!
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post #16 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-22-10, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
But yeah what you may want to do is like hollow out some of the tzeentch boy bodies, create like damaged suits with a painted glow coming from the inside for the plague marine look alikes.
THIS... I like. Think I'll push it one further and hollow them out with some LED's Might be a bitch to make them though.

I'm hoping for this campaign that as it's store based and there will be multiple tables that require scenery throughout the campaign I can abuse the lack of constant cover. Thinking I might Rhino-up a Tsons sqd so I can get Wind Of Chaos into range of things lurking in cover.

I'm scouting the other armies at the weekend so I can get a rough idea of what I'm up against over the coming months. I'm expecting at least 2 marine armies as the guy both play a variety of non-marine stuff and are thinking "go on then I'll give them a go" and I know of at least 2 necron armies 1 guard and 1 nid. Once I have a better idea what I'm up against it should be easier to build.

current thoughts on the progression of the army are

- Lash Prince
- Tsons in rhino with wind of chaos
- zerkers of some description (possibly in a rhino)
- Obliterator.

at 750

more obliterators
some sort of plague marine unit

at 1k

lash prince 2
more obliterators

at 1250

dunno




The Infernal Council of the Lord of Nine Tzeentch C:SM Project Log
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post #17 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-23-10, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzwang View Post
I love the ide of Thousand Sons so my army will definitely be Tzeentchian.
stick to your guns, play what you like and never let anyone any where that the only way to win with a codex is by a single list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroldrup View Post
Personally i would do it like this.
- Daemonprince: mos, lash, wings
- 5 Thousand sons: sorcerer, WoC, meltabombs, rhino
- 5 CSM: meltagun, rhino
this is the best piece of advice you've gotten so far. if you're having to meet the FOC rules, this is what i would go with. you could try to drop the melta gun on the CSM for a flamer, and drop the meltabombs and rhino on the TSons for maybe one or more TSons, but that's bouncing ideas around, and Kroldrup's set up is pretty good for what you're wanting to do.

good hunting.

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post #18 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-23-10, 09:59 AM
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Don't Change Your Ways.

Whizzwang, first if your going pure Tzzentch, then stick it with it.

Don't add in a Slaneesh sorcerer (however tempting it might be), go for a Tzzentch one instead.

Here's what I'd run for that first 500 points.

HQ: Tzzentch Sorcerer with Doombolt - 140 points.

5 Chaos Marines, Meltagun, Champion with Powerfist, Rhino - 160 points.

5 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Doombolt, Rhino - 197 points.

You've got a legal list which is flexible. Later on you can expand these squads and add in an Icon of Tzzentch to the Chaos Marines (don't slag these guys off. I've got a squad of them myself and they've survived a direct hit from a Vindicator).

Now I know you play Orks and your new to Chaos Marines, but a lot of people will tell you that unless you go for the holy quartet of Plague Marines, Lash Prince, Berzerkers and Obliterators you don't stand a chance.

This is bollocks! Chaos Marines have plenty of competitive units and ultimately it comes down to how you play them. If you want to go for a Thousand Sons list, then do it.

My only proviso would be to include at least of Tzzentch Chaos Space Marines with a Powerfist-toting champion for a bit of anti-tank. That and give one of your aspiring sorcerers the Bolt of Change psychic power.

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I am enjoying all of your articles. Thank you for your help. I hope I can use your tactics along with what I learn from experience to strike fear of green in to my enemies hearts.
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post #19 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-23-10, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LordWaffles View Post
And a squad of plague marines, take six per squad with double specials and a fist. Rhino not mandatory for plagues.

Zerkers are in squads of ten, powerfist, rhino with extra armor and nothing else.

In short you have zerkers(maybe magically aided sorceror/battle champs?) and plague marines(empty suits of tzeentch armor, so somehow more survivable?)

Double lashing princes are YOUR ONLY HQ IF YOU WANT TO WIN. PERIOD.
Albeit a warptime one does okay, he doesn't synergize as well.

Tsons are an abortion and will make you lose games, our elite choices dont exist aside from five chosen with guns, our fast attack doesn't exist at all aside from five raptors with double melta(120 worth of "Eff you landraider")

Oblits are your only heavy support option aside from daemon possessed vindicators.
Someone needs to learn that mathhammer doesn't always work out in RL. Also since last years 'ard boys people have made list specifically to counter the holy quartet. So you might walk in with your amazing award winning tried and "tru: dual LoS, Oblit, zerker, pm spam list, just to find 7 other players who have accounted for the internet cheese and built catch all counter lists. Meaning that they have spent months playing lists specifically to knock out cheese lists of all sorts and that they will table you by turn 3.

My advice is to try out new things, Missionary gets boring after a while you need to change it up. I've noticed most players don't know what to do when I pull certain models out of my box because they haven't accounted for anything other than, nid deathstar, SW JOTWW spam, Dual Lash, Loganwing, DS landraiders, or bikers(orcs and eldar). So when you pull out an off the wall list with lets say Tsons, ppl will shit themselves when they can't make their 3+ sv. Also cover is important, but but! not all tables are covered in stuff. Fire lanes happen, if the tourney is being ran properly, the judges will set the table up to make a person think tactically, not so that there is cover every movement phase. Units will be out in the open, and sometimes they need to be... (to get the line of sight, field coverage with big guns, etc) COver is nice but you shouldn't depend on it. You are an MEQ army after all. you have a save and with Tsons, marching throught the open works for you. +4 inv afterall.

Anyway. make wahtever list you want. study your fellow competitors, watch how they game at your FLGS and take notes, observe them, figure out their base line. and I mean baseline! almost every gamer has a unit they run in every list they make, their starting line up if you will. Figure out their starting line ups, make list accordingly to counter them, and as you move up in points add in stuff that will tip the scales even higher in your favor. ( for instance I know the baseline of 13 players in my area, I know when they are entering tourneys and often enough I know the armies they will be playing, I then build to counter. then again they generally know what I am using and they try to do the same to me.)

Happy gaming, and don't listen to every DualLashZerkerPMOblit recruiter online. More often than not they attempt to run the lists they preach by and fail miserably. I've seen Dual Lash killed by foot slog eldar, Nob Bikers, and even the oddest thing ever, Solid KHORNE goodness. in fact a list with 22 zerkers, 3 rhinos, Kharn and a Lord with bloodfeeder will roll over dual lash more often than not.

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post #20 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-23-10, 11:39 AM
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The Sullen One is 100% correct as is Kurrent. Besides a difference in taste (I'd run a Tzeentch DP over the PF carrying Champ) there isn't much more to say.

Winning without bowing to the god of LashingDPsChosenZerkersPlaguesOblits isn't as easy, but it is totally doable and will earn more respect then paying homage to the Min/Max god.

I'd play something like:

HQ: Tzeentch Daemon Prince with MoT, Wings, Warptime - 170 points.

5 Chaos Marines, Meltagun, Rhino - 120 points.

5 Thousand Sons, Sorcerer with Doombolt, Rhino - 197 points.

In my experience a Warptime Prince who ignores 50% of the attacks made against them is good. Wings makes it that much better.

Keep us updated on where you're taking the army.


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