1850 CSM and Orks (Competitive?) - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-26-15, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Default 1850 CSM and Orks (Competitive?)

A kind of lower tier tournament list is what I'm hoping for. I'm interested to know where the weakness are and how well it would work. My Alpha Legion and their (yet to be started) ork mercenaries; it's supposed to be a fast, tough CC list that can launch a few turn 2 charges

HQ Lord with mark of khorne, TDA, chainfist, lightning claw, veterans 152

E 4 Terminators with mark of khorne, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas 174

Land Raider 230 (556)

E 5 Terminators with mark of khorne, chainfist (champion), chainfist, 2 fists, c. flamer, h. flamer 228

Land Raider 230 (458)

T 6 CSM with flamer in rhino with havoc launcher 140

T 6 CSM with plasma gun, rhino with havoc launcher 150

FA 4 Bikes with 2 meltaguns, melta bombs, power weapon 130


HQ Warboss with power klaw, bosspole, warbike 115

T 12 Boyz with nob (bosspole, power klaw) in trukk with rockit launcher 142

FA 6 Warbikers with nob (bosspole, power klaw) 148

1839


Two land raiders full of khorne termies with fists (including the lord) for bashing stuff like knights and the opponent's equivalent hard units. The ork allies have the biker warboss and bikes to do a similar job.

The rest of the army supports those three units. The CSM troops push onto objectives and/or engage nuisance MSU units. The melta bikes go after enemy armour. The trukk boyz will try to get a T2 charge in the opponent's backfield but I know they aren't exactly recommended as a unit. It didn't really make sense to have footslogging boyz when the rest of the list are in vehicles or on bikes, and hopefully with the land raiders and bikes surging forwards the trukk might slip under the radar

I don't expect to hang with optimised eldar or pure knight lists but if it this army can give a good account of itself the rest of the time I'd be thrilled, I'm really into this list and can't wait to paint orks! Thanks for reading this far

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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-03-15, 04:25 PM
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i can't comment on the chaos part it has been several codex's since I have played chaos but it looks solid. The orks I think will preform well for what you want them to do. If you could get a painboy on a bike to put with the warbikes that will give them feel no pain as long as he is alive making them stay in the fight a little longer. Either that or make the trukk boyz Ard boyz giving them a 4+ save will make them better assault troops.


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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-03-15, 05:56 PM
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Not sure why Alpha Legion would have Mark of Khorne... but if you are going down that route then maybe replace the csm bikers with a Gorepack and have some Khorne Bikers and Flesh Hounds (aa feral or trained wolves like space wolves use).
Though if you did that you would not have the pts for Orks what i assume you want...
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-04-15, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by morfangdakka View Post
i can't comment on the chaos part it has been several codex's since I have played chaos but it looks solid. The orks I think will preform well for what you want them to do. If you could get a painboy on a bike to put with the warbikes that will give them feel no pain as long as he is alive making them stay in the fight a little longer. Either that or make the trukk boyz Ard boyz giving them a 4+ save will make them better assault troops.
Thanks. The question is, would you drop the warboss for a painboy and 'eavy armour for the boyz? No second HQ in an allied detachment so no painboy. Also is the painboy on a bike worth more than four more bikes? The warboss and ten bikes or the warboss, pain boy and six bikes?

I'll seriously consider the ard boyz thing. 6+ to 4+ is a big improvement, but it's costly. I'd likely have to trim down the CSM units to 5 each and maybe the CSM bikes to 3 to afford it

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Originally Posted by mayegelt View Post
Not sure why Alpha Legion would have Mark of Khorne... but if you are going down that route then maybe replace the csm bikers with a Gorepack and have some Khorne Bikers and Flesh Hounds (aa feral or trained wolves like space wolves use).
Though if you did that you would not have the pts for Orks what i assume you want...
The mark of Khorne is just used to represent them being good fighters- the elite bodyguard of the chaos lord. It isn't represented on the models and there's no Khorne theme, I probably should have made that clear

In game terms the MoK is there to give them so many S8 attacks on the charge they can threaten TH/SS termies, knights, wraithknights (the old one, at least), whatever future superheavies/gargantuan creatures come out etc. I feel like the MoK is pretty underrated

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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-04-15, 03:02 PM
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I'm not feeling disturbed by the Mark of Khorne within Alpha Legion. After all, this Legion operates in small cells used at taking the most benefits of what they have at hand to fulfil their objectives : if the local operatives expect to fight Knights or Wraithknights, why wouldn't them make some ritual to Khorne in order to improve their chances of success ?

Or even go and convince the local (small) ork warband to lead the assault (and allow the Alpha Legion units to reach their goal safer) ?

I have read some people complaints (not here, though) about the fact that the lack of available infiltrators into the CSM codex is actually making their AL armies useless. I can't fully agree with that (even if I tink that the sudden disappearance of infiltrated chosen from one codex edition to the other is a great loss for the players), because I think that infiltration, for the AL, is a mean, not a way of fighting (as it is the case for the Raven Guard, for instance). It is however available 1/3 times from the CSM or Strategic Warlord Traits tables, or directly when playing with "count as" Huron or Ahriman. Convincing others (as allies, even "Come the Apocalypse" ones, the local groups of peasants/cultists from the CSM codex or heretic magos to get some daemonforge engines) to fight at the frontline, protecting the AL forces and allowing them to focus upon their objectives, seems however necessary to me (even if the "norm" is something barely unknown to the Alpha Legion).

Your list (for the CSM part, at least) looks solid, and should allow you to engage against both heavy armoured and MSU armies. It only, maybe (because I'm not quite a specialist of the game), lacks some psychic powers.

If I had to modify your list for me to play with (not making it "better", but "different"), I would replace the Chaos Lord and the first Terminator squad with something like :

- Chaos Sorcerer : Master Level 3, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Balestar of Mannon (from Crimson Slaughter, because Divination fits quite well the AL operational planification)

- Chosen : 4 + 1 Aspiring Champion + Rhino, Plasma Guns, Icon of Vengeance, Melta Bomb, Draznicht's Ravagers ("Preferred Enemy" also symbolizing that the AL knows who it is fighting)

- I would make the Sorcerer join the Chosen, determine his Warlord Trait upon the Tactical or Strategic tables and spend the rest of the points to add some Orks.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-04-15, 03:51 PM
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Thanks. The question is, would you drop the warboss for a painboy and 'eavy armour for the boyz? No second HQ in an allied detachment so no painboy. Also is the painboy on a bike worth more than four more bikes? The warboss and ten bikes or the warboss, pain boy and six bikes?

I'll seriously consider the ard boyz thing. 6+ to 4+ is a big improvement, but it's costly. I'd likely have to trim down the CSM units to 5 each and maybe the CSM bikes to 3 to afford it
Since you can't have two HQ plus what I think you are trying to use the orks for I would go with the warboss and ten warbikers. The two powerklaws will do a lot more damage Also the warboss's LD9 will keep them in the fight longer compared to the painboys LD7. Since the painboy does not have access to a power klaw. The 6+ save from feel no pain would not worth the extra 4 bikers. Just remember the dakka guns can shoot at flyers too so really good against Flyrants. Definately make the boyz Ard boyz the 4+ will help them surivive when the trukk explodes or it will keep them in the fight longer when they start bashing stuff and they should serve your spikey beakies very well.


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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-04-15, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alt-f4 View Post
[SNIP]

If I had to modify your list for me to play with (not making it "better", but "different"), I would replace the Chaos Lord and the first Terminator squad with something like :

- Chaos Sorcerer : Master Level 3, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Balestar of Mannon (from Crimson Slaughter, because Divination fits quite well the AL operational planification)

- Chosen : 4 + 1 Aspiring Champion + Rhino, Plasma Guns, Icon of Vengeance, Melta Bomb, Draznicht's Ravagers ("Preferred Enemy" also symbolizing that the AL knows who it is fighting)

- I would make the Sorcerer join the Chosen, determine his Warlord Trait upon the Tactical or Strategic tables and spend the rest of the points to add some Orks.
I like your thoughts. It's a pity you have to go to such lengths to give an XX Legion army character. I liked the old rules allowing infiltrators, but didn't like the cultist thing. Infiltrating units alone would be fine with me, something like reserve manipulation too and maybe outflanking.

Yea I see what you mean about the lack of psykers. With the power dice system it always seems a shame when a list doesn't have at least one psyker to use those dice

I like the idea of the plasma gun chosen but I'd be reluctant to put such an expensive unit in a rhino. With the ork bikers getting a 3+ jink and the terminators in the land raider I think the chosen and sorcerer in the rhino would get a lot of fire going their way and would struggle to get into rapid fire range. I think the most I'd be happy to put in a rhino would be a cheap sorcerer using psychic shriek and havocs with plasma guns. It's like a bargain version of what you suggested, but I'd still be worried about that rhino getting blown up early and the unit getting picked off before it does anything

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Originally Posted by morfangdakka View Post
Since you can't have two HQ plus what I think you are trying to use the orks for I would go with the warboss and ten warbikers. The two powerklaws will do a lot more damage Also the warboss's LD9 will keep them in the fight longer compared to the painboys LD7. Since the painboy does not have access to a power klaw. The 6+ save from feel no pain would not worth the extra 4 bikers. Just remember the dakka guns can shoot at flyers too so really good against Flyrants. Definately make the boyz Ard boyz the 4+ will help them surivive when the trukk explodes or it will keep them in the fight longer when they start bashing stuff and they should serve your spikey beakies very well.
Part of the appeal of orks is the biker warboss. S10 T6 with plenty of attacks is pretty impressive- even more so considering how fast and cheap he is and how good ork bikes are. Chaos can't match a warboss with PK (and bosspole) on a bike; he's incredible value at 115 points.

The problem is it would have to be either eavy armour on the boyz OR extra bikes, and in either case it requires reducing numbers of other units to find the points. If I had to choose it would be the bikes because no matter what the boyz can do they're relying on a trukk to get them into the fight and for me anything inside 10/10/10 armour has to be cheap.

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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 06-04-15, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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I've been playing around with an alternative involving no ork allies. I'm struggling to decide which would be better and more fun to play. The ork option definitely appeals more for painting and modeling

This list has the same core units (same lord, terminators and troops) but three units of bikes and a vindicator. It has more units than the ork list and would probably be a bit better at grabbing objectives and dealing with MSU type opponents, but no ork warboss wrecking face

HQ Lord with MoK, TDA, chainfist, lightning claw, veteran 152

E 4 Terminators with MoK, chainfist, 2 fists, 2 combi meltas 174

Land Raider 230 (556)

E 5 Terminators with MoK, chainfist (champion), chainfist, 2 fists, combi-flamer, h. flamer 228

Land Raider 230 (458)

T 6 CSM with flamer in rhino with havoc launcher 140

T 6 CSM with plasma gun in rhino with havoc launcher 150

FA 4 Bikes with 2 meltaguns, melta bombs, veterans 119

FA 5 Bikes with MoK, 2 flamers, power sword, veterans 150

FA 5 Bikes with 2 melta guns, power maul, veterans 150

HS Vindicator with combi bolter 125

1848


The second bike unit is a bit unusual but could be quite an effective MSU killer with two flamers, a power sword, rage, counter attack and hatred space marines. I can imagine it being ignored and the opponent going for the melta bikes instead

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