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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-27-15, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Default 1500 pt Tzeentch list

Ok guys so here's my list:


Sorceror
Mark of Tzeentch, Sigil of Corruption
2 Mastert Level's, Spell Familiar

10 Cultists w/ Flamer

10 Cultists w/ Heavy Stubber, 8 Autoguns, Shotgun

5 Thousand Sons

5 Thousand Sons

Forgefiend

Maulerfiend

Heldrake

Deamon allies

Tzerald

10 Pink horrors

3 Flamers

3 Screamers

Burning Chariot

1434 pts

what do you guys think? what's the best use for the last 66 points?
what if the list was 1750 or 1850, what would be the best additions?
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-29-15, 06:50 AM
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I would look at running a pair of Deamon Engines, make them the same.. and given the rest of the list I would say a pair of Forgefiends may work the best.

I would also consider, 'mobing up' the Cultists into one blob.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Uveron View Post
I would look at running a pair of Deamon Engines, make them the same.. and given the rest of the list I would say a pair of Forgefiends may work the best.

I would also consider, 'mobing up' the Cultists into one blob.
You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.

Ahem. Based in a purely hypothetical stance, it might be best to run two of the same Daemon Engine, yes: redundancy means that even if an enemy takes out one of them, the second is still ready and kicking to fulfill its designated roll. That said, the flexibility offered by fielding a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend alike means that you are more capable of responding to varied threats at range and up close, so that has a value and capability to respond of its own... (assuming that your foe doesn't surgically remove whichever is more threatening to their particular interests, which is basically what a competent foe will do, given the opportunity).

So what I mean to say is: if you, moshpiler, have already built these two minis of the same kit in opposite ways, no major foul. If you could still build them the same way, so much the better and so much easier to build a list around. If, in best case, you could (say) magnetize the units so you could field them in either Mauler or Forge predominance, so much the better for your collection and list flexibility!

Myself, I try never to field a Burning Chariot unless I'm also bringing (the somewhat unreliable) Grimoire or (the dispellable/failable) Invisibility, as major defensive buffs. Nor am I too overly impressed by the AP4 Flamers, so I might kill 2 birds with 1 stone and drop the Flamers, take the Grimoire on the Herald, and still have a few points to play around with--say, grabbing another Screamer or two. If you don't want to bring the fragile-as-all-hell Burning Chariot, you can always resort to the durable-as-all-hell Soul Grinder, who for a nominal cost can still fit in with your Tzeentch theme--and be more survivable to boot!

I would also try to grab a Rhino or two for the 1ksons, more for the sheer number of Ob-Sec units I'd be fielding than anything else, but also to boost their mobility.

Giving you MLs, Daemon Engines, Rhinos and more Screamers to think about, I hardly think I have limited myself in terms of how to spend that hypothetical 66 points that are still free (even if you drop the Flamers to fill out the rest of those options), but in terms of potential long-term growth, I think that every single one of those option offers areas for expansion. I might, admittedly, default to Be'Lakor at the 1850 point level, since when he casts Shrouding, it means that nearby Screamers have a 2+ rerollable cover save, thanks to Jink and Daemon of Tzeentch, and he can always Jink for a (ha, "mere") 2+ cover save with his native Shrouded, and Armorbane+Fleshbane at I8 means he can take on/out most things in the game before they can so much as force him to rely on his 4+ invuln... but this is a definite personal bias speaking, so take that as you may.

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Last edited by Mossy Toes; 01-30-15 at 08:31 AM.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.
That is a very good point.

Now I will say I like a 50/50 mix on my cultists, the extra auto-gun shots are very useful when you are forced into a shooting war/over-watch.

But I love my cultists..

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 09:22 AM
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Paying an extra point compared to guardsmen for the same statline, less a whole bunch of heavy weapon and special weapon options, I have to say I resent the difference between the two... but I'm a sucker for Chaos, so recognize that the specific role cultists play (camping on objectives while forgotten--often winning me games for it, honestly) is vital enough and filling the "Lost & Damned" hole in my heart enough that... I have to say, I love my cultists too...

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
You might face a pre-assembled bias there, honestly. And it seems like the cultist load-out is a pretty "Dark Vengeance" inspired one... that said, if I had the opportunity, I would still take a purely melee cultist unit of 20 over the 10 and 10 melee-and-ranged on offer in this list, even if that means proxying the 10 autogun cultists from Dark Vengeance as melee-pistol cultists among close friends.

Ahem. Based in a purely hypothetical stance, it might be best to run two of the same Daemon Engine, yes: redundancy means that even if an enemy takes out one of them, the second is still ready and kicking to fulfill its designated roll. That said, the flexibility offered by fielding a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend alike means that you are more capable of responding to varied threats at range and up close, so that has a value and capability to respond of its own... (assuming that your foe doesn't surgically remove whichever is more threatening to their particular interests, which is basically what a competent foe will do, given the opportunity).

So what I mean to say is: if you, moshpiler, have already built these two minis of the same kit in opposite ways, no major foul. If you could still build them the same way, so much the better and so much easier to build a list around. If, in best case, you could (say) magnetize the units so you could field them in either Mauler or Forge predominance, so much the better for your collection and list flexibility!

Myself, I try never to field a Burning Chariot unless I'm also bringing (the somewhat unreliable) Grimoire or (the dispellable/failable) Invisibility, as major defensive buffs. Nor am I too overly impressed by the AP4 Flamers, so I might kill 2 birds with 1 stone and drop the Flamers, take the Grimoire on the Herald, and still have a few points to play around with--say, grabbing another Screamer or two. If you don't want to bring the fragile-as-all-hell Burning Chariot, you can always resort to the durable-as-all-hell Soul Grinder, who for a nominal cost can still fit in with your Tzeentch theme--and be more survivable to boot!

I would also try to grab a Rhino or two for the 1ksons, more for the sheer number of Ob-Sec units I'd be fielding than anything else, but also to boost their mobility.

Giving you MLs, Daemon Engines, Rhinos and more Screamers to think about, I hardly think I have limited myself in terms of how to spend that hypothetical 66 points that are still free (even if you drop the Flamers to fill out the rest of those options), but in terms of potential long-term growth, I think that every single one of those option offers areas for expansion. I might, admittedly, default to Be'Lakor at the 1850 point level, since when he casts Shrouding, it means that nearby Screamers have a 2+ rerollable cover save, thanks to Jink and Daemon of Tzeentch, and he can always Jink for a (ha, "mere") 2+ cover save with his native Shrouded, and Armorbane+Fleshbane at I8 means he can take on/out most things in the game before they can so much as force him to rely on his 4+ invuln... but this is a definite personal bias speaking, so take that as you may.
Uveron and mossy said it all.
Also, you might want to drop flamers and chariot and use those extra 66 points to make a big killy unit of screamers...

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mossy Toes View Post
Paying an extra point compared to guardsmen for the same statline, less a whole bunch of heavy weapon and special weapon options, I have to say I resent the difference between the two...
But they also fill a troops slot in a power-amoured force, and can be taken only in units of 10. So Yes the guardsman may be 1 point more per-man, But not when you factor in the other costs of HQ's and the like..

And my current favort use for cultists is as a body guard for my Terminator Lord. Its very funny to see the specialist assault troops unable to target him in close-combat as they are not a character... (was especially funny when fighting Wraith Kights)

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 09:49 AM
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But they also fill a troops slot in a power-amoured force, and can be taken only in units of 10. So Yes the guardsman may be 1 point more per-man, But not when you factor in the other costs of HQ's and the like..

And my current favort use for cultists is as a body guard for my Terminator Lord. Its very funny to see the specialist assault troops unable to target him in close-combat as they are not a character... (was especially funny when fighting Wraith Kights)
Very valid points. I included the "so recognize that the specific role cultists play" phrase even before counting the necessary HQ tax that CSM pay (even from my perspective of weakness towards splurging overmuch on HQ to an unwise degree), which is all well and good.

Having ample bodies and a Fearless leader to whittle down a Wraithknight is immensely satisfying, admittedly--but a Wraithknight that managed to tie up 150 points of cultists and 225 points of Lord for several turns just about removes them from the game, honestly, and buys his points back... before accounting for whatever he kills in the turn or 2 before he gets stuck in. Wraithknights are a lot of points because A) they are hard to kill, B) you can't afford to ignore them, and C) they protect the rest of your army through their sheer hard-to-kill-ness while they are being killed.

...Hence my personal weakness for sending a Sorcerer with a retinue to Force Axe a Wraithknight to death, assuming you cast Force then manage to roll a 6 to wound in one of the following 2 Assault phases. If you manage it, you short-circuit their "statistical" assumptions in order to-

But I'm getting side-tracked by my vendetta (not the flyer) against Wraithknights. I wholeheartedly adit that I build my lists, these days, in consideration as to what can kill a Wraithknight, what can kill an Imperial Knight, and what can kill a Riptide. If the list can manage multiple of each of those... the list can handle just about anything in the meta, whether it be Termis with TH/SS or T8/AV13 S10/SD (respectively). Except flyers.

BY WHICH I MEAN TO SAY I'm just plain getting side-tracked. The marginal cost of cultists is certainly worthwhile; however, while I see the value of having a few potshots at 24" range, I personally value the psychological warfare of hiding them out of sight and letting the opponent forget about my 50 point unit camping on an objective more. This admittedly only works against low to mid-tier level players, and a capable player will turbo-boost in with their guardian jetbikes on the last turn...

But the sheer juggling of enough mental items has led more than a few opponents to forget my cultists until it's too late, so I value them for that more than for the handful of S3 shots I get out of them for 10 points more. And if they do have to get stuck in, hey, not paying that point per model means an extra melee attack per cultist that survives at I3 in order to be able to attack at all!

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-15, 10:17 AM
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Having ample bodies and a Fearless leader to whittle down a Wraithknight is immensely satisfying, admittedly--but a Wraithknight that managed to tie up 150 points of cultists and 225 points of Lord for several turns just about removes them from the game, honestly, and buys his points back... before accounting for whatever he kills in the turn or 2 before he gets stuck in. Wraithknights are a lot of points because A) they are hard to kill, B) you can't afford to ignore them, and C) they protect the rest of your army through their sheer hard-to-kill-ness while they are being killed.\
Continuing the side-track... When supported by the 100pt Helbrute I have been very successful in taking out Wraithknights.. In the last month my lord and cultist and Helbrute have dropped 3 of the blighters... (well the last 2 were in an apoc game and it did kill the lord before it was finished off the next turn, but appart from that one they have all gone down in one turn of shooting and combat)... but yes thats more probably my luck than anything else (and the fact Iron Warriors excel in hand to hand with Titans)

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Continuing the side-track... When supported by the 100pt Helbrute I have been very successful in taking out Wraithknights.. In the last month my lord and cultist and Helbrute have dropped 3 of the blighters... (well the last 2 were in an apoc game and it did kill the lord before it was finished off the next turn, but appart from that one they have all gone down in one turn of shooting and combat)... but yes thats more probably my luck than anything else (and the fact Iron Warriors excel in hand to hand with Titans)
As far as Titans go, meltabombs will do that. Eventually...

But yeah. I can't honestly say I frown upon the killing of Wraithknights. I mean, not only are you taking out one of the most competitive units from one of the most easily competitive armies in the game, but you're also claiming the soul of some great hero for Slaanesh to devour? Gameplay vindication+fluff triumph, right there.

Warp, I'm not going to blame luck, when I have luck more than anything to thank with my Sorc finishing off 2 Wraightknights and a Wraithlord in a couple of games, who he by no means statistically deserved to finish off. Good on you! Hail Chaos! Etc! And... we can't rely on such luck in games to come, so let's do our best to figure out how to game the system in our advantage, shall we?

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