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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-07-14, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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ohh and thx for all the feedback.

its nice to have ppl help out with the list, and work on the theme, instead of just saying, this and that is better, take that.

thx guys

much appreciated
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 03:53 AM
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I see your point with the hounds. Then, maybe a unit of five and a unit of fifteen? I'm thinking of opponents fielding MSU jetbikes- or generally just small scoring units that don't really warrant the attention of a hard hitting CC unit but need to be taken care of somehow

If the huge unit works for you then there's no reason to change it, but maybe it's something to consider in the future. After a game think whether a unit of 15 and 5 would have been better than the unit of 20. Maybe so if you lose a game because there's a ripper swarm sitting on an objective at the end

If you've got that extra terminator I'd use it! I'm interested to hear what other people think though. I quite like the MoN, but with the MoT I think a lot of the appeal is psychological. In reality boosting a 5+ invulnerable to 4+ is no different than going from no invulnerable to a 6+. Every time you roll you're still relying on a 1 in 6 chance of the expensive mark actually making a difference. And with an invulnerable it's not quite the same as an armour save where AP is a factor

Edit; It's always fun discussing lists!
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 06:32 AM
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In reality boosting a 5+ invulnerable to 4+ is no different than going from no invulnerable to a 6+.
While I agree that the effect is statistically the same, I'd argue that on an expensive unit with a 2+ armor save, such an improvement is markedly more useful (than, say, MoT on a cultist), given that the marginal benefit of the upgrade is well worth saving a Termi or two from the sort of specialized anti-Termi weaponry that's going to be flung at it.

I'm fine with a single blob of Hounds given that to take more units of them would require taking more Daemons detachments, which is looking unlikely in this list, to say the least. If you can find a way to stay in unit coherency, I'm always a fan of multi-assaults with such a large unit: you have enough attacks to crush two small targets with relative ease, even without your bonus assault ones. Plus a unit of 20 or 15 is damned well not going to give up First Blood against anything less than a 7 Wave Serpent list...

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 08:06 AM
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While I agree that the effect is statistically the same, I'd argue that on an expensive unit with a 2+ armor save, such an improvement is markedly more useful (than, say, MoT on a cultist), given that the marginal benefit of the upgrade is well worth saving a Termi or two from the sort of specialized anti-Termi weaponry that's going to be flung at it.

I'm fine with a single blob of Hounds given that to take more units of them would require taking more Daemons detachments, which is looking unlikely in this list, to say the least. If you can find a way to stay in unit coherency, I'm always a fan of multi-assaults with such a large unit: you have enough attacks to crush two small targets with relative ease, even without your bonus assault ones. Plus a unit of 20 or 15 is damned well not going to give up First Blood against anything less than a 7 Wave Serpent list...
That's true about the MoT. That said, while it's a bit cheaper than nurgle I'd still find the six points to make an unmarked unit of six than a tzeentch unit of five.

Wow, I completely overlooked the fact he can't take more than one unit of hounds

One of the things that puts me off that big unit is the potential for something like a dreadnought, imperial knight, wraithlord or wraithknight to charge it and make the dogs useless. Is there any way of making a khorne herald a threat to AV12 or T8? If so, that would be a high priority for me so while the dogs are getting killed you could be doing some damage with the character. Alternatively I'd look to have a couple of strong CC threats elsewhere that could potentially charge in and go to work while the dogs act as a meatshield. A fisticlaws bike/jugger lord could be useful in that scenario

Anyway, multicharging would extremely useful on that hound blob
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 08:28 AM
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One of the things that puts me off that big unit is the potential for something like a dreadnought, imperial knight, wraithlord or wraithknight to charge it and make the dogs useless. Is there any way of making a khorne herald a threat to AV12 or T8? If so, that would be a high priority for me so while the dogs are getting killed you could be doing some damage with the character.
Ran into this issue against a Dreadknight. The Herald had a Greater Etherblade, so S6 AP2 Mastercrafted (S7 on the assault, but he didn't get it, what with the DK counter-assaulting after I wiped his Gk Termis and Librarian Warlord). That's enough to wound Riptides or Dreadknights on 4+, and glance AV12 on 6s (and there are just plain enough Hounds around that baring a disastrous boxcars Daemonic Instability test, no non-super-heavy walker or MC* will have enough attacks to wade through them all in a game). Against a Wraithknight, I think he might be better going for the Axe of Khorne on the Lesser Reward he has there, since S5 still wounds T8 on 6s--and the Axe of Khorne causes ID on 6s to wound.

The Imperial Knight... well, that's a bit more of a problem. You're still going to keep it absorbed for quite a few turns (again, barring boxcars--and probably all game if Be'lakor can spare an Invisibility for the challenge every now and then), since it's D-strength weapons can only kill 1 Hound per attack and its Stomp can't ID the Hounds. Still, it is a unit that costs slightly more than that Knight, and has no real way of touching it. Or Soul Grinders, or Ironclads. And they can't "our weapons are useless!" out, either. Your best bet would probably be to jump somebody like Be'lakor, Screamers, or Skarbrand (you know, the Armorbane brigade) in there to pump some pens into the AV13 walker.


*Barring something like Skarbrand with his 7 to 9 IDing Fleshbane attacks per phase, or something. There are always fringe cases. But I don't have to make that exception even for the anti-light-infantry-specialists the blenderfist Furiosos, I should think, given that I have a decent invuln, my Hounds aren't getting IDed by S6, and the Furioso needs to roll to hit on every new attack...

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 01:54 PM
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Ran into this issue against a Dreadknight. The Herald had a Greater Etherblade, so S6 AP2 Mastercrafted (S7 on the assault, but he didn't get it, what with the DK counter-assaulting after I wiped his Gk Termis and Librarian Warlord). That's enough to wound Riptides or Dreadknights on 4+, and glance AV12 on 6s (and there are just plain enough Hounds around that baring a disastrous boxcars Daemonic Instability test, no non-super-heavy walker or MC* will have enough attacks to wade through them all in a game). Against a Wraithknight, I think he might be better going for the Axe of Khorne on the Lesser Reward he has there, since S5 still wounds T8 on 6s--and the Axe of Khorne causes ID on 6s to wound.

The Imperial Knight... well, that's a bit more of a problem. You're still going to keep it absorbed for quite a few turns (again, barring boxcars--and probably all game if Be'lakor can spare an Invisibility for the challenge every now and then), since it's D-strength weapons can only kill 1 Hound per attack and its Stomp can't ID the Hounds. Still, it is a unit that costs slightly more than that Knight, and has no real way of touching it. Or Soul Grinders, or Ironclads. And they can't "our weapons are useless!" out, either. Your best bet would probably be to jump somebody like Be'lakor, Screamers, or Skarbrand (you know, the Armorbane brigade) in there to pump some pens into the AV13 walker.


*Barring something like Skarbrand with his 7 to 9 IDing Fleshbane attacks per phase, or something. There are always fringe cases. But I don't have to make that exception even for the anti-light-infantry-specialists the blenderfist Furiosos, I should think, given that I have a decent invuln, my Hounds aren't getting IDed by S6, and the Furioso needs to roll to hit on every new attack...
Strength 6 is decent. Looking for 6 to wound/glance when flesh hounds are dying all around you isn't ideal but it's something. The axe of khorne seems like a better choice if you face Eldar a lot. Against a wraithknight the potential for instant death would surely scare away any T8 unit from engaging if they can avoid it

The stomp can ID the hounds if it rolls a 6, but just as often it'll roll a one and do nothing at all. The rest of the time S6 AP4 isn't that devastating even if it gets all three stomps. Having to damage AV13 is a nuisance, but like you said, Be'lakor or Skarbrand would be devastating.

Skarbrand is brutal. I know a unit without any particular speed or defensive strengths is going to be difficult to get into combat but I'm still surprised he doesn't appear in lists more often given he's nowhere near the sort of points Be'lakor, knights and the various superheavies cost. A Be'lakor/Skarbrand combo could be a nightmare if you can deepstrike him in and make him invisible. Good luck killing him in combat and even tarpitting with massed termagants seems ineffective given all of his attacks and re-rolls to hit.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-08-14, 09:36 PM
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The axe of khorne seems like a better choice if you face Eldar a lot.
And the nice thing is you only have to buy a Lesser Reward; swap it for an etherblade normally, if you like, but against Eldar, during warlord traits and psychic powers, you pick differently...

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A Be'lakor/Skarbrand combo could be a nightmare if you can deepstrike him in and make him invisible.
I... may have a list to that effect.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-09-14, 12:37 AM Thread Starter
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Chaos Lord: MoN, Bike, 4+ invul, Blight Grenades, L. Claws, Power Fist. 170

Chaos lord: Juggernaught, MoK, 4+ ward, Axe of Blind Fury ,melta bomb 175

6 bikes: MoN, Champion w. power fist and meltabomb, 2x meltagun 211

5 terminators 3x power weapon, MoN, 2x Chain fist 201

5 spawn 150

Maulerfiend 125

10 cultists 50

5 plague marines: 2xplasma gun, champ. w. melta bombs 155

Rhino 35



Allies:

Khorne Herald: Juggernought, Lesser reward, greater reward, locus of wrath. 155

18 hounds 288

3 nurglings 45



edit: changed cost of bike lord to the correct 170

Last edited by otasolgryn; 11-13-14 at 03:23 PM.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-09-14, 02:16 AM Thread Starter
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I... may have a list to that effect.
Mossy, you have a list to ANY effect, at all.

its just finding it
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-09-14, 02:21 AM Thread Starter
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oh and for skarbrand, someday im fielding a list with him and a grimoier, grimoir, how the hell do you spell that? the book anyhow.

Just to see if he cant make it in combat.
DAMN he is nasty. and those buffs around him... really really nasty to a cc list too.
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