1850 Fabulous Bile Rolls in Style - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 04:10 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 15
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uveron View Post
CSM can also replace the Boltgun, with a CCW .. codex page 95
Ahh found it, I missed that bit! Okay I can see where you have got the 170 points from.

& I agree that 'zerkers and enhanced CSMs aren't competitive. I was just showing that 'zerkers performed better in assault.

NathanJD, sorry for the hi-jack!!
Hugh1992 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
NathanJD's Avatar
NathanJD's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 268
Reputation: 6
Default

I’m loving the discussion here, keep it up! It’s given me tons to think about. In response, I’ve developed a few points in favor of Fabius and his Enhanced Warriors.

Challenges!
Any self-respecting master of chaos wants to please the gods with challenges. Also… you kind of have to unless you’ve built a sacrifice-able champion into your unit. And personally, I’d rather throw a p.fist or axe on the champion to let him swing down the rest of the enemy unit unmolested. Don't forget Fabius re-rolls hits against space marines and has a re-rollable 2+ to wound against anything T5 or lower.

Against a basic Chapter Master (WS6 T4 4W 3+/4++), Fabius has a 86% chance to kill with his 7 attacks in a single round of combat. The above mentioned Khorne Lord w/ claw doesn't even register, with a 0.1% chance to do 4 wounds with his 4 attacks. Not only this but Fabius averages 1.7 wounds per round to the Khorne Lord’s 0.75.

Who runs a basic chapter master you ask? Not many but it’s a useful reference point. Unfortunately you’re more likely to run into a Chapter Master on a bike with a 2+/4++, boost-able to a 2++, eternal warrior and a burning blade. Both chaos lords piss themselves in this matchup but even so, Fabius averages 0.85 wounds per round while the Khorne Lord averages 0.19, so you’re still better off with Fabius. Even if the I5 lets you swing an extra round, Khorne still nets less damage than Fabius.

The one challenge in which the Khorne Lord does excel is against the lowly marine sergeant, with a 94% chance to kill from his 4 attacks vs Fabius’s 91%. This is where his I5 really comes into play as most likely he will achieve a flawless victory.

To sum it up, Fabius is massively better in challenges, even against models with Eternal Warrior. However, as the Khorne Lord is cheaper, the addition of the Khorne daemon weapon and VotLW might be a more fair comparison. This lord (165pts for terminator, khorne, AoBF and VotLW) beats Fabius pretty handily in the 2+ eternal warrior Chapter Master scenario. But, he's still a bit worse against characters without eternal warrior. Although the ability to totally wreck infantry outside of a challenge probably makes the Khorne lord a better choice than Fabius. If you don't factor in Enhanced Warriors that is .

Points Efficiency
I don’t think it’s fair to straight up compare Enhanced Warriors to Berzerkers as Berzerkers are much more expensive so if the codex designers had any sense, they should be better. I’ve done some math on the points efficiency of the two as any lack the Enhanced Warriors have could, in theory, be made up elsewhere in the list. I didn't do any setups with bolters, but it should be mentioned that for a squad of 10, bolter+bp+ccw will cost you 18pts (not 20) as the champion already has all 3.

We’ll start off with 10 Enhanced Warriors with bp/ccw and compare them to 10 Berzerkers. The Warriors cost 140pts and average 3.44 dead MEQs on the charge, which translates to 40.65 points per dead MEQ. The Berzerkers at 200pts, average 5.17 dead MEQs, translating to 41.03 points per dead MEQ. So, at their most basic they’re roughly equivalent in this respect but the Warriors pull way ahead in resiliency per point.

Next up we’ll compare the same Berzerkers to some Khorne marked Enhanced warriors. 160pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 35.12/MEQ. Now we’re really starting to see the Warriors pull ahead.

Now for the banner. We’ll compare Khorne marked Enhanced Warriors w/ banner to Berzerkers with a banner. Warriors: 180pts / 5.69 dead MEQs = 31.61/MEQ. Berzerkers: 220pts / 6.07 dead MEQs = 36.22/MEQ. Again, you’re getting a better deal on both damage and resiliency per point. Below I’ve listed these all for convenience:

10 Warriors: 140pts / 3.44 dead MEQs = 40.65/MEQ
10 Khorne Warriors: 160pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 35.12/MEQ
10 Khorne Warriors + banner: 180pts / 5.69 dead MEQs = 31.61/MEQ
10 Berzerkers: 200pts / 4.56 dead MEQs = 43.90/MEQ
10 Berzerkers + banner: 220pts / 6.07 dead MEQs = 36.22/MEQ

Now for the bling. @Uveron ’s mention of the balestar gave me an idea of adding a Sorcerer to the unit. For simplicity I’ll just list all the combinations out. The Sorcerer’s only equipment is the balestar, force sword and bolt pistol, putting him at 85 points. These calculations are assuming prescience was cast on the unit.

9 Warriors + Sorcerer: 212pts / 6.33 dead MEQs = 33.47/MEQ
9 Khorne Warriors + Sorcerer: 230pts / 7.83 dead MEQs = 29.36/MEQ
9 Khorne Warriors + banner + Sorcerer: 250pts / 9.98 dead MEQs = 25.17/MEQ
9 Berzerkers + Sorcerer: 266pts / 7.15 dead MEQs = 37.21/MEQ
9 Berzerkers + banner + Sorcerer: 286pts / 9.53 dead MEQs = 30.01/MEQ

As you can see, here the Warriors pull even farther ahead as a re-roll has a greater benefit to a 4+ than a 3+.

In summary, Berzerkers continue to be arguably the worst power armored unit in the game.

Monstrous Creatures
There’s no contest here. Fabius will make a mess of Riptides and Wraithknights.

All that being said, any Chaos Lord without 12” movement + AoBF or Daemonheart is sub-par and probably not competitive.

So, without further adieu, here's the updated list:

Crimson Slaughter + Deamons + Helcult (1850)
Fabius Bile - 165
9 Chaos Marines: plasma, combi-plasma, bolters, bolt pistols, ccws, melta bombs - 173
Rhino - 35
@Uveron , while it pains me to lose the 3rd plasma gun, you're right. Gotta spread the fearless love around.

Sorcerer: force maul, bolt pistol, balestar, level 2 - 110
9 Chaos Marines: enhanced, khorne, banner, bolt pistols, ccws, power fist - 190
Land Raider: dirge caster - 225
I'm pretty torn between a p.fist and axe for the champion. S10 AP2 is irresistible to me but S6 AP2 with an extra attack is probably good enough in most cases. I chose a maul over a sword for the Sorcerer as he's pretty screwed against 3+ lords anyway. I also paid for mastery level 2 so I can both prescience and force-out models. My rolls will go to prescience and biomancy.

3 Bikes: 2 melta guns, melta bombs - 95
Due to points-shuffling these got downgraded to dedicated anti-tank.

Helldrake: baleflamer - 170

Predator: autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launcher, combi-bolter - 112

Predator: autocannon, lascannons - 115
@Uveron , I find the tri-las predator to be prohibitively expensive. Plus prescience is wasted on the already twin-linked turret.

Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
@Hugh1992 , I personally don't consider horrors an attacking unit unless you're massing them. You don't want to be giving enemy units FNP. Their sole purpose is to get a 2+ re-rollable go to ground on a home objective while still being able to cast prescience on the nearby Predators. If they ever get to actually fire the quad-gun at full BS that's just gravy.

Helbrute: multi-melta, power fist, heavy flamer - 115
Cultists: flamer - 55
Cultists: flamer - 55
@Uveron , Great idea on the heavy flamer. Last time I used this setup I took 3 turns to chew through a single IG command squad. I'm seriously hoping this draws fire away from my other vehicles as with the 3+ cover I believe it will be a waste of my opponent's points. This is of course ignoring Tau and IG who could care less about cover.

Last edited by NathanJD; 04-30-14 at 09:14 PM.
NathanJD is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-30-14, 08:44 PM
Token Trans Mod
 
Zion's Avatar
Zion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the internet.
Posts: 6,385
Reputation: 103
Default

Just a reminder: total points costs for something is fine, but a full points breakdown is not. We don't need to taunt GW's lawyers by posting the full breakdown on everything we're posting. Thank you.
Zion is offline  
 
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
NathanJD's Avatar
NathanJD's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 268
Reputation: 6
Default

Sorry @Zion , is that in reference to my post? I could pull the totals from it but they would still be easily attainable by multiplying MEQ dead by points/MEQ. 2 values which do not exist in the codex but are needed for the discussion. Please advise.
NathanJD is offline  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 09:49 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 15
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJD View Post
Herald of Tzeench - 45
Horrors - 90
Aegis Line: quad-gun - 100
@Hugh1992, I personally don't consider horrors an attacking unit unless you're massing them. You don't want to be giving enemy units FNP. Their sole purpose is to get a 2+ re-rollable go to ground on a home objective while still being able to cast prescience on the nearby Predators. If they ever get to actually fire the quad-gun at full BS that's just gravy.

Why don't you just use plague bearers??? Them having the 'Shrouded' ability will grant them 2+ cover save behind the Aegis defence line without having to go to ground!!
Hugh1992 is offline  
post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 10:35 AM
Member
Shadow's Fury's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 90
Reputation: 3
Default

Because daemons of tzeentch get to re-roll any failed saves, so effectively they have a 2+ re-rollable save behind an ADL if they go to ground.

List looks very interesting! Would be very interested to hear how it plays out!

Also, what Zion means is you have displayed the individual points costs of the units, while summing up the points, eg. Combined troops = ..., Helcult total is..., posting the full breakdown of points is against forum rules.
Shadow's Fury is offline  
post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 11:05 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 15
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow's Fury View Post
Because daemons of tzeentch get to re-roll any failed saves, so effectively they have a 2+ re-rollable save behind an ADL if they go to ground.

If the go to ground would they not be able to fire the Quad gun?
Hugh1992 is offline  
post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 12:08 PM
Token Trans Mod
 
Zion's Avatar
Zion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: On the internet.
Posts: 6,385
Reputation: 103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJD View Post
Sorry @Zion, is that in reference to my post? I could pull the totals from it but they would still be easily attainable by multiplying MEQ dead by points/MEQ. 2 values which do not exist in the codex but are needed for the discussion. Please advise.
I already edited the posts in question. It had to do with ones that broke down points totals for the units. Total costs are fine, but an option by option breakdown is not.
Zion is offline  
post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 01:29 PM
Member
Shadow's Fury's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 90
Reputation: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh1992 View Post
If the go to ground would they not be able to fire the Quad gun?
You can still fire it, but will be snapshots. It's twinlinked so you may get away with one or two hits
Shadow's Fury is offline  
post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-01-14, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
NathanJD's Avatar
NathanJD's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 268
Reputation: 6
Default

@Hugh1992 , don't forget that you can cast prescience while gone to ground. Another win for Horrors vs Plaguebearers .
NathanJD is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Army Lists > Chaos Marines Army Lists

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome